In this episode of the Lean Blog Podcast, Mark Graban is joined by Art Smalley to explore Toyota-style problem solving and the deeper thinking behind A3, PDCA, and continuous improvement. Drawing on Art's experience at Toyota and his research into the history of TPS, the conversation goes beyond tools to focus on leadership, learning, and building true problem-solving capability.
My guest for Episode #324 of the podcast is Art Smalley. Art was one of the first Americans to work for Toyota Motor Corporation in Japan and, since then, has been helping other organizations with the Toyota Production System (a.k.a. “Lean”) methods and approaches. You can also visit his website to learn more, www.ArtOfLean.com.
Art is a fellow faculty member at the Lean Enterprise Institute. He has written two Shingo Publication Award-winning books: Creating Level Pull and (co-authored with Durward Sobek) Understanding A3 Thinking. Art later wrote Toyota's Kaizen Methods: Six Steps to Improvement with Isao Kato.
I own all of these books and have only met Art briefly in the past, so I'm happy to finally have him here as a guest. Today, we'll talk about Art's career and his most recent book, Four Types of Problems, published by the Lean Enterprise Institute (note: LEI provided me a free electronic copy of the book).
In today's episode, we discuss why treating every problem the same leads to frustration and failure, as Art Smalley shares lessons from Toyota, his experience applying TPS in the U.S., and the thinking behind his Four Types of Problems model.
I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.
For a link to this episode, refer people to www.leanblog.org/324.
For earlier episodes of my podcast, visit the main Podcast page, which includes information on how to subscribe via RSS, through Android apps, or via Apple Podcasts. You can also subscribe and listen via Stitcher or Spotify.
Topics and notes for this episode:
Meet Art Smalley
How an “accidental Lean guy” found his way to Toyota–and what that experience shaped for him.
Learning TPS Outside of Toyota
Key lessons from applying Toyota Production System thinking in an American company (Donnelley), including what doesn't translate easily.
Common Misunderstandings About Lean and TPS
Why organizations often misapply Lean–and how tool-focused thinking misses the point.
Why “Everything Must Be an A3” Is a Mistake
How over-standardizing problem solving can actually weaken improvement capability.
The Origin of Four Types of Problems
What prompted Art to write the book–and the gap he saw in how organizations approach problem solving.
The Four Types of Problems — Explained Simply
- Type 1: Troubleshooting
- Type 2: Gaps from Standard
- Type 3: Target Conditions
- Type 4: Open-Ended Problems
Why Problem Solving Must Be Learned in Sequence
The case for mastering Types 1 and 2 before moving to Type 3 problems and formal A3 thinking.
A3s vs. Toyota's Approach to Type 2 Problems
How Toyota distinguishes between daily problem solving and deeper, more exploratory work.
Martial Arts, Learning, and Improvement
How Art's personal practice influences his views on capability, discipline, and continuous improvement.
A Memorable Analogy
“If you're being choked out by a black belt… that has nothing to do with Six Sigma.”
- Articles from the LEI website:
Video of Art:
Thanks for listening!
A Deeper Look at Problem Solving Beyond the A3
In this episode, Mark Graban is joined by Art Smalley, a former Toyota engineer and one of the most thoughtful voices on Lean problem solving.
Art shares his journey as an “accidental Lean guy,” beginning with his time at Toyota and continuing through his efforts to apply TPS principles in American organizations. Along the way, he reflects on the challenges of translating Toyota's ways of thinking into different cultural and organizational contexts.
A central theme of the conversation is the widespread misunderstanding of Lean and TPS–especially the tendency to treat tools like A3 thinking as one-size-fits-all solutions. Art explains why demanding that everything be an A3 often does more harm than good and why problem solving needs to be matched to the type of problem being addressed.
The discussion explores the thinking behind Art's Four Types of Problems framework, which distinguishes between:
- Troubleshooting problems
- Gaps from standard
- Target-condition challenges
- Open-ended problems
Art explains why organizations must first build strong capability in basic problem solving (Types 1 and 2) before expecting success with more advanced methods like A3s for Type 3 problems. He also clarifies how Toyota's approach to gap-from-standard problem solving differs from the structured learning cycles used for target conditions.
The episode closes with a thoughtful reflection on how Art's personal practice of martial arts has shaped his philosophy on learning, discipline, and continuous improvement–underscoring that real problem solving is about practice, judgment, and humility, not just tools or certifications.
This conversation is a valuable listen for anyone seeking a deeper, more practical understanding of Lean, TPS, and how to develop true problem-solving capability in organizations.
If you’re working to build a culture where people feel safe to speak up, solve problems, and improve every day, I’d be glad to help. Let’s talk about how to strengthen Psychological Safety and Continuous Improvement in your organization.
We must always remember that problems come in pairs. The first problem is the one that has occurred. The second is our own fault and occurs when we do not study the first problem; establish the reason for its occurrence, and take action to learn the lessons and create new procedures to ensure this problem cannot recur.
Your problems can be your best instructors. We should not see problems as obstructions to our progress, but as a source of valuable instruction on how to proceed more effectively.
“I finally ran out of things that didn’t work.” Thomas Edison. His explanation to Napoleon Hill of how he discovered the electric light bulb.