Jason Burt shares what it was really like to be coached directly by Toyota during Herman Miller's early TPS journey. In this episode, we explore how Toyota develops people first, why results follow culture, and what many Lean transformations get wrong.
Joining me today for Episode #332 is Jaon Burt, owner of EHIP Consulting. Jason is a Lean consultant and business coach with an extensive and diverse background, including a manufacturing career where he has led and coached organizations to increased levels of efficiency and performance. Using the Toyota Production System (TPS) approach has allowed him to positively change cultures to achieve sustainable improvements.
During his time at Herman Miller, Jason spent 18 months learning TPS directly from Toyota as a Toyota Lean Consultant. Toyota and Herman Miller were in a partnership during his time with the company, which allowed him to receive direct coaching from Toyota Senseis for the entire 16 years.
I was interested in talking with Jason about what it was like learning from Toyota's TSSC organization (a group that has done great work with a UCLA eye clinic and a food bank, to name two that I've featured on the blog). We talk about a wide range of topics, including common misunderstandings about TPS and Lean, the Toyota goals of developing people and their clients (knowing results will follow), and how he sometimes has to adapt to work with clients and their expectations. I hope you enjoy the conversation!
For a link to this episode, refer people to www.leanblog.org/332.
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Questions, Topics, and Links:
- Find Jason on LinkedIn
- Find Jason on Twitter
- Jason's blog
- How did you first get introduced to Lean and TPS?
- Do you see Lean and TPS as being synonyms or are there differences out there?
- Why Lean?
- Tell us about the Herman Miller Production System… what was it like to be an internal consultant / coach?
- What were some of the successes and benefits of Lean at Herman Miller?
- What were some of the struggles and challenges?
- Mistakes and lessons learned, in the spirit of “Practicing Lean?“
- Why were there “two factions” where one facility was being coached by Toyota and another had a consultant who used “kaizen workshops” primarily?
- What are some misunderstandings that you've seen about Lean?
- Different styles vs. misunderstandings?
- “Lean and Six Sigma are two separate things”
- What was it like being coached by TSSC? – “Getting in the trenches”
- What was your opportunity to work directly for TSSC for a period?
- “One of only three HMI (Herman Miller) employees (out of 6000) commissioned to spend time with Toyota in order to strengthen Herman Miller's TPS learning”
- A TSSC employee was on site for 18 months, paid for by Herman Miller
- Goals: Developing people and their clients… results will follow
- Different than focusing on “ROI & results” first
- What was your opportunity to work directly for TSSC for a period?
- How did the culture and management system change at Herman Miller?
- What have you done since Herman Miller?
- What is it like introducing Lean / TPS to different companies?
- “Unfortunately, I have to adjust my style sometimes… try to find the right clients.”
- What's the difference or opportunity in being an interim executive?
- How can companies help keep manufacturing in the USA by using the Lean approach
- Why is this important?
- How can people learn more about your work and contact you online?
Transcript:
Mark Graban: Hi, this is Mark Graban. Welcome to episode 332 of the podcast. It is February 14th, 2019. Joining me today is Jason Burt. He is the owner of E HIP Consulting. He is a consultant with an extensive, diverse background with a manufacturing career leading and coaching organizations to increased levels of efficiency and performance. Using the Toyota Production System (TPS) approach has allowed him to positively change cultures to achieve sustainable improvements.
During his time at Herman Miller, Jason spent 18 months learning TPS directly from Toyota as a Toyota Lean consultant. Toyota and Herman Miller were in a partnership during his time with the company, which allowed him to receive direct coaching from Toyota Senseis for the entire 16 years. I was really interested in talking with Jason about what it was like learning from Toyota and their TSSC organization.
Jason talks about a number of things including common misunderstandings about TPS and Lean, Toyota's goals of developing people knowing results will follow versus an ROI-driven approach, and how he sometimes has to adapt to work with clients and their expectations. Well, Jason, hi. Thank you for being a guest on the podcast. How are you?
Jason Burt: I'm great, Mark. Thanks for having me on the show. I appreciate it.
Mark Graban: I'll let you introduce yourself and your background and weave into that story how you got introduced to Lean and the Toyota Production System.
Jason Burt: My name is Jason Burt. I am the owner of E Hip Consulting or Evolve Holdings. I am a consultant in the Lean/Toyota Production System space, and I really got started within that space back when I was at Herman Miller. I worked for Herman Miller for about 16 years, and fortunately was there along the journey all the way from the beginning, back in about 1995 through to about 2011. I was able to work side by side with Toyota and some great Herman Miller people along the way to develop and learn as much as I could.
Mark Graban: So 1995 was basically the start of the Lean Journey at Herman Miller, is that right?
Jason Burt: There were kind of two factions. Toyota started to work with one of the Herman Miller facilities, which was a recent acquisition. If you went to Herman Miller corporate, they had another group there that was TBM-based and TBM-trained. At that point in time, everything going on in the organization hadn't been brought together, so we had two different groups taking two different approaches.
One group felt their approach was the one Herman Miller should adopt corporately. It wasn't until a couple of years down the road where Herman Miller saw the results that happened at one of the facilities with TSSC's guidance that they decided the Toyota approach was really what we wanted to do corporate-wide. Down south in those facilities, they were taking very much to a Kaizen workshop approach–a three-day event. We were doing more day-to-day problem solving Kaizen along with TSSC.
Mark Graban: When I talk to former Toyota people, they always comment that when they get out into the broader Lean world, they realize they didn't do a lot of Kaizen events at Toyota.
Jason Burt: Since I've left Herman Miller, I've realized how common that is. Just the perspective of Lean in the broader market creates a lot of misunderstandings across the board compared to someone who is very familiar with the Toyota approach.
Mark Graban: One misunderstanding that grinds my gears is when I hear people from a Lean Six Sigma background say Lean is all about efficiency and Six Sigma is the approach for quality. I think that's factually incorrect because the foundations of the Toyota Production System are Just-in-Time flow and Jidoka–built-in quality.
Jason Burt: I struggle with the term Lean Six Sigma in itself. I think there are two separate things. When I start seeing belts and certifications in the Lean or TPS space, that really starts to become bothersome for me because I know that's not how you learn. You learn by getting in the trenches and doing it, not by taking a class online and getting a certificate. It's more about people finding the right path that's truly impacting the customer, whether you call it Lean, TPS, or your personal operational system.
Mark Graban: Let's bring that back to what it was like being coached by TSSC and the journey at Herman Miller.
Jason Burt: When I went to TSSC, I was very young in my career, only 23. It was pretty shocking. I was successful at Herman Miller, but when I got to TSSC, I didn't realize how big the gaps were for myself personally, specifically in basic problem solving. At Herman Miller, I knew the lines and the product, which allowed me to skip steps in the problem-solving process. TSSC forced me to make sure that I was taking the right steps all the way through my journey, no matter how big or small the problem was. It was like bootcamp for problem solving and developing my critical thinking.
Mark Graban: You actually got time to go with TSSC to work at other companies?
Jason Burt: I worked with TSSC at Herman Miller when I was a work team leader on the paint line and an ops manager. Then I had an opportunity to go to TSSC and actually become a TSSC employee paid for by Herman Miller. I spent a year and a half there working with nonprofits and different Toyota suppliers just to learn as much as I could to bring it back to Herman Miller.
Mark Graban: One thing that always strikes me is the humility in their approach. It sounds like they're teaching people to fix their own process and have ownership of it.
Jason Burt: Their whole purpose was just to develop the people that were there and develop their clients. It wasn't all about the financial results, although that was important. Their thought process was: if we develop the people, we'll all win.
One of my first clients at TSSC was a non-profit company in Indiana that employed mentally and physically handicapped employees. TSSC was so focused on what we could do to help them remain employed and employ as many people as possible. We were there to develop those leaders and help those employees engage more. Most of my problem solving there was: how do I make the job fun so that they want to do it? I probably learned more working in that one client than I did in some of the automotive manufacturers just because of the different perspective around people being an important resource.
Mark Graban: I think one of the challenges as a consultant is that you're often working with organizations that are focused on the bottom line, want ROI, and demand short-term results. Do you find that you're able to operate in that same style or do you have to adjust your style?
Jason Burt: Unfortunately, I have to adjust my style in some cases. I'm always looking for those clients where the leadership is truly looking to change their culture for the long term. I have clients that are looking for bottom-line results, and along the way, I'm trying to teach different leaders to see the benefit of looking long term. I work with a lot of private equity firms that bring me in to do turnarounds, and I have my own agenda in the back of my mind to develop the leaders, but that's not necessarily the larger picture for them as owners.
Mark Graban: Going back to the starting points at Herman Miller, how much of it was business need versus a philosophy around developing people?
Jason Burt: It started off as a very clear business need. That particular facility was last in delivery, quality, and cost across all Herman Miller companies. It was to the point where corporate was looking at either outsourcing our product or just going and buying it elsewhere.
But if you look at Herman Miller's long history, they are a very people-focused company. Once Toyota came in and showed the results, the fit was pretty natural. Herman Miller is one of the few companies outside of Toyota where I believe the culture truly supported TPS in the right way.
Mark Graban: What are some of your recollections about the development of the Herman Miller Production System within that plant?
Jason Burt: We went back to pretty basic fundamental things. It was a very large batch production process on the paint line. We made small filing cabinets, and we would paint 200 black ones, then 300 white ones.
The transition was going from multiple cell batch operations to developing an assembly line and creating some basic flow. We were able to take it from about 80 hours of internal manufacturing lead time down to about four hours over a two-year process. We worked on changeover and took the paint line changeover from about an hour and a half down to about 15 minutes.
What made it successful was that Herman Miller invested in developing people. We had a corporate HMPS team, and myself and about five others started working with the top leadership of all the different plants to drive the change.
Mark Graban: Did you have good support from senior leadership within Herman Miller Corporate to help get the local plant managers to be enthusiastic?
Jason Burt: We did. Our COO at the time was the president at the facility where TSSC started. He saw it, experienced it, and eventually became the COO across all of Herman Miller. He really helped pave the way. He looked at all the GMs and VPs and said that the HMPS team has 51% of the vote. When there was a big decision that was needed, we had the backing to get things done.
Mark Graban: How much would you say the culture changed by the time you left?
Jason Burt: We could look around and see the philosophies in action. We could see where people were being treated as the most important resource, where leaders were going to the Gemba, and where problem solving was the first approach versus buying a new machine. You would walk through the offices and see people filling out A3s. When we saw it in action like that, we felt like the engine was fueling itself.
Mark Graban: Can you talk about the differences between being an outside consultant versus stepping in as an interim executive?
Jason Burt: It really doesn't change my approach much. In both scenarios, I'm trying to teach and coach and be that Sensei for the people. Acting as an interim executive makes my life easier because nine times out of ten, the biggest struggle is that top leader. Short term, we can drive results quickly, but it doesn't necessarily solve the problem for the company of how to set them up for success down the road. We still have to put someone in that spot that is going to believe in those principles.
Mark Graban: Where do you find the balance regarding driving results and developing people depending on the private equity firm?
Jason Burt: The companies I work with are probably medium to long-term private equity firms, looking to hold for at least five years. There are a lot of PE firms looking for the slash and burn, and I get those calls more often than I want. The ones looking for me to come in just to slash jobs to make a buck–I graciously say no to them.
Mark Graban: What are your thoughts on companies using Lean as a strategy for keeping manufacturing jobs in the US?
Jason Burt: It's very important to me personally. My focus early in my career was about outsourcing. I see so many companies making the decision to outsource out of desperation or reaction versus a strategic move. They get backed into a corner because they haven't been doing the work to make their company performance better. I constantly encourage companies to start as soon as possible. Companies need to be driving change now to improve their processes so they don't get to that point where they feel desperate and move work to a lower-cost country.
Mark Graban: Let's end on a positive note. What is a success story that makes you smile?
Jason Burt: I love seeing people at all levels get engaged. One of my favorite stories from Herman Miller involved doing some problem solving with an employee. Someone asked him something specific about his job, and he pulled out a folder that was probably an inch thick of ideas of how he could improve his work. He had been waiting for someone to actually ask him what could be done better. Seeing someone get excited about making their job better really gets me excited.
Mark Graban: Where can people find you online?
Jason Burt: I'm available on just about all social media, but I spend the most time on LinkedIn. My website is https://www.google.com/search?q=ehipconsulting.com.
Mark Graban: Thanks again, Jason.
Jason Burt: Thanks, Mark. I appreciate it.
Another Podcast with Jason Burt:
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