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My guest for Episode #407 of the Lean Blog Interviews podcast is Joy Mason, a Strategist, Author, Speaker, and Entrepreneur based in Indianapolis. She is President and Senior Business Strategist at her company, Optimist Business Solutions, which she started after 18 years at Eli Lilly.
She is the author of the books The Optimist Workbook: 5 Steps to Sustainable Solutions for Women in Business and Purpose: A Shift from Driving It to Embracing It.
In this episode, we discuss Joy Mason's Lean journey, starting with her early exposure to Six Sigma and Lean at Eli Lilly and how scientific problem solving resonated with people trained as scientists. Joy explains how her thinking evolved beyond tools to focus more on systems, behaviors, and how work actually gets done across organizational silos — or, as she reframes it, how to work across silos rather than trying to break them down.
A central theme of the conversation is the idea of “Lean before layoffs” or “Lean instead of layoffs.” Joy shares why layoffs are often a management failure rather than an inevitability, and how leaders can use Lean thinking, optimism, and better problem solving to find alternatives that protect people while improving business performance. We explore what optimism really means in a business context, why it's not naive or soft, and how it shapes leadership decisions, especially in times of pressure or uncertainty.
We also talk about the work Joy does today through Optimist Business Solutions, including her focus on helping organizations — especially nonprofits — apply Lean principles in ways that are practical, humane, and sustainable. Throughout the episode, Joy emphasizes purpose, respect for people, and choosing long-term capability building over short-term reactions, offering lessons that apply well beyond any single industry.
The podcast is sponsored by Stiles Associates, now in their 30th year of business. They are the go-to Lean recruiting firm serving the manufacturing, private equity, and healthcare industries. Learn more.
This podcast is part of the #LeanCommunicators network.
You can listen to the audio or watch the video, below. I hope you enjoy it like I did.
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Here is the cleaned-up transcript of the interview with Joy Mason.
Lean Blog Interviews: Episode 407 with Joy Mason
Mark Graban: Hi, it's Mark Graban here. This is Episode 407 of the podcast for March 31st, 2021. Our guest today is Joy Mason. You'll hear about her more in a second. But if you want to find links and show notes, you can go to leanblog.org/407.
Hi everybody, welcome to the podcast. I'm Mark Graban, and our guest today is Joy Mason. She describes herself as a strategist, author, speaker, and entrepreneur. She is the president of her company, Optimist Business Solutions, and she started that company after retiring from Eli Lilly. Joy is the author of two books. The first one is titled The Optimist: Five Steps to Sustainable Solutions for Women in Business. And the other is called Purpose: A Shift1 from Driving It to Embracing It. So Joy, thank you for being here. How are you today?
Joy Mason: I am doing great, Mark, and thank you for having me. This is long overdue.
Mark Graban: Yes. I'm glad we could do this. And we're not going to do root cause analysis on “overdue” or what. I'm happy you're here.
Joy Mason: I am too. Thanks.
Introduction to Lean and Continuous Improvement
Mark Graban: So we're going to talk about all sorts of things. Considering the word “Optimist” is in the name of your company and the title of your book, we'll come back to that later on. I guess that's called a tease to help people keep listening. But, as I often do, if there's one question that I tend to ask every guest here, I'll ask you, Joy: How did you get introduced to continuous improvement, and what style or flavor was your first introduction to any of this?
Joy Mason: My first introduction, Mark, to the word “Lean” and what it meant was actually when I was going through my Six Sigma certification through Purdue University. While I didn't get the Lean Six Sigma certification, Lean is one of the modules that we get through that certification. And I don't know about you, but when I was introduced to Lean and Six Sigma, I found a sector, I found words, I found terminology, a philosophy that aligned with how I was already thinking. So it's kind of… the question, I think, is when did you get introduced to this approach and the terms and the principles called Lean? But I was already thinking that way for quite some time. I think that just evolved over a period of time in my work–my overall approach to how I look at issues and how work gets d2one. And when I found that, “Oh my gosh, this is something where I can grow in my expertise and th3ere's a discipline,” I just thought, “Well, 4this is it,” and loved it when I was introduced to it.
Mark Graban: That's something I hear from people, that “Oh wow” moment. Dr. Greg Jacobson, who I've known and worked with at KaiNexus–he's the CEO there–he had the similar “Oh wow” moment when he first got introduced to the Kaizen style of continuous improvement. He was a resident. He was like, “This puts words to what I've been doing and trying to do.” And it's helpful to find a framework. So in your case, Joy, what were some of the things that most connected with you or resonated with you when you were introduced to this?
Joy Mason: I'll have to tell you, here's what's funny. Because of how I think, and I love frameworks and tools, I got attached to the tools pretty quickly. I just love tools because to me they are robust, they're repeatable. So again, I found a lot of enjoyment from taking these tools and applying them. But I had a coach during the time that I was introduced to Lean and 5he was a Six Sigma Master Black Belt. I'll never forget the coaching that he gave me where he said, “Joy, be careful.” He could tell I was so excited about the tools and applying the tools and he just really cautioned me that yeah, the tools are part of it, but it's not all of what this work is about.
And again, when I talk about Lean, I'm also talking about the continuous improvement field. So, the tools were the initial attraction, but then when you also look at the principles of Lean, “respect for people” is part of Lean as well. That can easily get lost when you're the kind of person that gets just excited about some of the strategies and tools. It's a mindset, but it's also about the people. So if you find anyone–and I'm sure you know this, Mark–who is not incorporating the respect for people, meaning internal employees and clients, into how they apply Lean, then they're not doing Lean. I don't know what they're doing. I guess maybe they're just applying tools, but they're not showing fidelity to what Lean is supposed to be. And so as I have evolved as a continuous improvement professional, I have come to appreciate that part of it even more6.
Mark Graban: Yeah. And I think that's an evolution that a lot of us, myself included, went through. Tools are easier to teach than mindsets and philosophies. People who are, let's say, working as an engineer… if you're being asked to lead improvement projects, individuals who are not senior leaders can help drive tools more so than they can drive culture. But I appreciate the point you bring up that there are a lot of instances where you could be driving tools without the mindset and it could be damaging to the organization. It could be dysfunctional in different ways. It can push people away from improvement instead of drawing them in.
Joy Mason: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that kind of feeds into what I know we'll talk about–some employees, some people react to Lean thinking this is just an avenue to lay people off. It's just an avenue to get rid of people. And so there can be a guttural negative reaction to Lean. I want to be very transparent: In some of the continuous improvement efforts, it may be revealed that in order to maximize and optimize value, maybe there are some activities and roles that are no longer needed. But that is not the goal or focus of Lean, right? It's to make sure that we are optimizing value. It's always about the value. It's not about fewer employees. And cutting that people piece is really critical.
Lean, Science, and Nonprofit Culture
Mark Graban: We'll come back and talk more about that later because that was one of the things I saw you write about last year that kind of sparked, “Oh, let's do a podcast on this topic of Lean versus Layoffs.”
So, you talk about the mindset and it's good that you got that coaching, right? Because some people don't have the benefit of that coaching. They keep just rolling along with pushing tools at people. So it's good that you got that coaching and you have these mindsets and approaches.
One thing I wanted to ask you about… I've already mentioned I'm an engineer. I know your background is as a scientist, a microbiologist. What are your thoughts around when we talk about this culture that gets framed sometimes as scientific problem solving? What are some of your thoughts coming from your background as a scientist and embracing whether it's Lean or Six Sigma and this approach to problem solving and improvement?
Joy Mason: Well, I do view Lean and Six Sigma as a scientific approach to problem solving. In fact, there was someone that I was speaking to a couple of weeks ago, and sometimes Mark, I do not use the words “Lean” or “Six Sig7ma” when I'm talking to individuals. I'm very thoughtful about whether or not that would be helpful. S8o I didn't use those words, and when I was describing to her a way to go about maximizing value and problem solving, she said, “That's a scientific method.” So she picked up on a very methodical and intentional way of addressing issues, effectiveness, efficiency, and problem solving without me saying those words.
So that is what it is. It's a scientific approach. However, again, I try to be very mindful because I have worked with individuals… well, a lot of my clients are in the nonprofit sector since I came out of Lilly. And what I have found there is not always a positive reaction to say, “Well, this is a scientific-type approach to optimizing value and problem solving and continuous improvements.” Sometimes that resonates and sometimes that doesn't. So yes, I do think it's a scientific method towards achieving maximum effectiveness and efficiency and value, but I'm just mindful when I draw that analogy.
Mark Graban: Yeah, I wonder. I've done a little bit of work with a couple of nonprofits, and I wonder if part of that reaction is the idea that “scientific” sounds very uncaring or unfeeling. It might be too broad of a generalization, but if you think of the Myers-Briggs scale, I think engineering and scientists are going to be in the T range, the Thinking versus Feeling range. And people working in nonprofits may tend toward the F and the Feeling side. So how do we navigate that and work together if people might have different personality types or different feelings about their role and what their organization is and does?
Joy Mason: And Mark, to that point, here's what I have found: Find common values and goals. And it always works when we have a conversation. So between me and the nonprofit client–and it's usually the leader and then with the leader's leadership team, and then we go down with the rest of the staff–when we talk about maximizing the impact for those that they're serving, trying to be more efficient and thoughtful, being more effective, no one disagre9es with that, right? I mean, we're all on the same page with that impact that we're trying to have.
In fact, that's one of the books here, right? This is Lean Impact by Ann Mei Chang: How to Innovate for Radically Greater Social Good. So we all want to maximize that impact. And as long as that's kind of the common destination that we all have… and again, with those clients, I don't use lingo. I don't talk about how we're going to “do the Gemba.” I just don't. That's a turnoff for them. So stay aligned with the common goal.
Mark Graban: Yeah. And there are times when Toyota, when they talk about some of their purpose and values, they talk a lot about providing benefit to society, which is really high. I appreciate that and I admire that. That's kind of high-minded for being a for-profit manufacturing company. And Toyota people will say like, at the core, they are a manufacturing company. The culture of the company is built off of manufacturing culture. That's not always true in every manufacturing company, but I think it's interesting… maybe that's a point where Toyota very effectively partners with nonprofits. I don't know if you've seen the videos of Toyota working with a food bank, for example, and coming in and looking at the operations of a food bank–strong social mission and good feelings generated. But then Toyota approaches for improvement can apply in that setting, as I'm sure you're seeing in your work.
Joy Mason: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah.
Experiences at Eli Lilly
Mark Graban: So we'll come back and talk more about the work that you're doing now, but Joy, I would like to explore a little bit more about your experiences at Lilly because I've never worked in a pharmaceutical setting. I'm wondering, I'm guessing… or I guess I'll ask as a question. You have a lot of scientists at Lilly. So there might be people that resonate with this idea of scientific thinking, but at the same time, I wonder is there hesitancy where people would say, “Wait a minute, why are we trying to learn from Toyota? We don't build cars here at Lilly. We're improving lives and saving lives and on the cutting edge of science in different ways.” What was it like within the Lilly environment? Were there adaptations or was it a matter of finding, as you were saying, common interests, common ground together?
Joy Mason: Well, Mark, that's a good question, but I want to take you back to what I mentioned earlier regarding the coaching that I got. And when my coach said, “Joy, be careful from overemphasizing the tools and getting really excited about the lingo,” that was coaching for internal work that I was doing with project team members inside the organization, not outside.
You know, it's interesting, but the pharmaceutical company… probably the first perception is that–and I believe we had about 40,000 employees globally–I would imagine that the common perception is that the majority of those 40,000 employees are scientists. And that's not the case. So we have a whole range of areas, and every area has their own culture. You have marketing, you have marketing and sales, legal, IT, HR, you have regulatory. So oftentimes we a10re engaged in projects that go across different departments and sectors because across all of us, we deliver what we deliver not within11 one department in a silo. No department can do it alone.12
So what I found is that across departments and within departments13, you have a range of individuals who either resonate with Lean or do not. So when I was talking about my work with nonprofits and being very mindful of saying “this is the scientific approach” and all that, it's not only for nonprofits that I was very mindful. It was also within the organization within pharma and within Lilly.14
Now we had a centralized group–and I know there are other large companies where it's structured the same–where you have 15a centralized group that is focused on Lean Six Sigma, and those individuals are typically Master Black Belts because they are also trying to influence the culture. That's their role as a Master Black Belt. With my role as a Black Belt, I was actually in my division, so that's where my reporting was–actually in the Quality division.
In the Quality division, I'd say again, because you do have chemists, pharmacists–me, a microbiologist, that wasn't as common–but a lot of scientists. So there was a reception to it. But again, even within the Quality division, being too lingo-heavy and giving it a name… people have change fatigue. And when you call an initiative something, folks tend to think “flavor of the month.” They just hear this phrase and it's something else that's coming through.
So I'll just take it back to what I mentioned before, and that is being very mindful to how new initiatives and strategies land on people, their change fatigue, what helps them be most receptive to new approaches and strategies. And a lot of times that means you may be bringing in the lean mindset and using different tools, but you're not always identifying it as such. So that's the same in and out. I know that's a long answer to your question.
Mark Graban: No, it's okay. It was a fairly broad question, so it kind of lends to a good long answer. So what I hear you saying is Lean and Six Sigma at Lilly was not just about production, that there were applications in many different business functions. Is that fair to say?
Joy Mason: Yes, yes. And I did not encounter anybody saying, “Well, you know, we're not making cars and this is not Toyota and you can't just apply it,” because a lot of people don't even know the history of where Lean comes from. So when we're bringing those types of strategies into an organization, I did not find where employees were automatically making a connection to Toyota and cars and saying, “Hey, that's not us.” It was more of a, “Okay, what initiative is this and where does this fit in with everything else we're trying to do?” That was more the mindset.
Mark Graban: Yeah. You bring up that “flavor of the month” issue. Sometimes people ask me, “Well, how do we make sure Lean isn't flavor of the month?” And that tends to come from organizations that have a history of flavor of the month. So you can't just tell people, “Well, this is not just another flavor of the month,” because they might not believe you. They say, “Okay, prove it.” You know how many organizations out there would say, “Well, we tried Total Quality Management and that didn't really last. We tried Theory of Constraints and nobody really took to that. So then we did Six Sigma. Now we're doing Lean Six Sigma.” At what point do people step back and wonder why our initiatives or flavors are fading away instead of just grabbing a new flavor? That's a different level of problem solving.
Joy Mason: And Mark, unfortunately, I have done what you just mentioned where I say it looks like an initiative, but it's a mindset and way of thinking. And I guess everybody comes in and says that for every initiative and strategy that they're trying to bring in. But I honestly believe that. And what I have noticed is that, again, that respect for people and building relationships, it really matters.
And so when I say that, “You know, this is a robust way of going about doing business that will last and stick with you, and you will not look at operations or problem solving the same afterwards, it will stick with you,” I can only hope that because I emphasize the relationship part of what I do, that they believe me because of the relationship, not necessarily just believe it because they are words. And because they are words, they believe Joy is sincere in saying that you will not look at things the same once you start to understand the approach and philosophy.
Mark Graban: Yeah. Well, I'm sure you had built up trust with those people. That's a part of that relationship. You didn't come in–that's a challenge sometimes coming in as an outside consultant, you don't have that history with people and you can't say, “Trust me,” because people might say, “No thanks.” I mean, you can't make anybody. But you were able to build on that. So that's probably at least one of the adjustments now of being outside working with other organizations.
Joy Mason: Right, right. Yeah.
Silos and Working Across Departments
Mark Graban: When you talk about principles and mindsets, you brought up the idea of breaking down silos. That is universally powerful and I'm curious what your experiences are. I think of hospital health systems being very siloed organizations where when you start looking at things as a value stream… for me, the one example that comes to mind is the value stream with a patient who's in the emergency room. A nurse there draws a tube of blood and sends it to the lab, and the lab turns that into information that goes back to the clinicians. A16nd the lab might be literally 150 feet down the hall from the emergency department. And I can't tell you how many times the ED people have never been to the lab. The lab people have never been to the ED. And so what I've found is when there… it goes beyond the process knowledge that's lacking, it's a lack in relationships where I've found it's easier to blame, say tongue in cheek, “those nameless, faceless jerks in that other department” when you don't know their names and their faces. I'm curious, what were some of your experiences of trying to help break down silos and build relationships and trust and communication across these different functions?
Joy Mason: Well, it's a constant process. I don't want to say “break down those barriers.” I don't know if you break them down. I don't know if that's the right phrase, but it's “working across” the departmental structures because there are some structural things that are in place that contribute to silo building. And it's hard to, especially when you're in a large organization, to overcome the structures. And so that's why it's very dependent on having leaders and champions who are constantly working across the silos to bring people together. It's a constant, right? But someone's gotta champion that, lead it and understand the importance of constantly doing that.
So with the role that I had, and I'll focus on the last decade when I was at Lilly, it was project management for global projects. So I worked across our international affiliates and it was a challenge. So not only do you have technical services, quality control, the laboratories, and I worked with individuals in procurement–those are different departments–but I also had to coordinate a17cross different sites. So there's Puerto Rico, there was France, there was Italy, Spain, Mexico… I can18‘t think of all of our sites. I think there were about 10 different sites. So just imagine with all those silos that are geographical, they're departmental, there are many types of silos.1920
And so what I've found is by default, I guess being human, we end up separating ourselves and saying, “Okay, I did my part.” And also when things go wrong, pointing the finger. I think maybe just being human21, that is the default. But in order for all of us to have the common goal of what needs to get done, there 22has to be regular, frequent intentionality for bringing all of us together.
So I had regular, frequent meetings where we all are reminded of: What is the goal? Where are we headed? So everybody can nod their head to that and realize that they're all contributing. They all have roles and responsibilities towards contributing towards the goal. And we're talking every week to all march towards the goal.23
Now with that project management role, what was interesting was–and this has been transferable as I've worked with other large projects–is to be the negotiator. To have 24a good understanding of what is the core that we all need to march to the same beat versus what are some other things outside of the core where we can negotiate and be flexible. So what you need for your department or your site in France, you can do it differently and that's okay. And that is a negotiation and a balance that is ongoing. So I just think that was an invaluable role that I had the last 10 years to work across many different silos.
But what I have found, the minute that the person who is either leading or championing working across pulls back, you see it just must be some built-in default with being human that folks will go right back to their silos. So that has to be a way of doing business to keep that communication and coordination, negotiation, and understanding the big picture to keep all that together.
Mark Graban: I agree with you. I think the tendency to want to wall ourselves off and think about our professional group, our organization, our team… it does seem like there's some human nature there. The tendency to blame others when we can deflect it from ourselves, I think is absolutely a matter of human nature.
Joy Mason: It must be. We must have found it helpful for that trait still to be there and be there pretty strongly. But you would just hope over time that, especially when you're working on a common initiative where it takes everyone working together in order to accomplish the goal, you would just hope that over time people would see that there25‘s greater benefit by working across the silos and working together. But again, I think there's something in the neuron structure where we're working kind of upstream here to get everyone to see the long-term benefit.
Mark Graban: I like the language you're using, Joy, around “working across silos” because the reflection for me is that “breaking down” focuses on the silo, and “breaking down” might seem a little violent as if we're tearing a structure down, as opposed to focusing on the people and people can work acro26ss.
Joy Mason: Yes, absolutely. It just felt like a strong word. I don't know if we break them down because the silos actually serve a purpose. We have to be mindful that there are benefits of the silo, but then there are some drawbacks of the silo. So we have to have strategies to deal with the drawbacks. And that can be just like I was talking about, working with the social sector, where we focus on the common goal and how we all work together to achieve that. But I can't say the word often enough: That has to be a constant and very deliberate effort.
Mark Graban: Well, so thank you. Because I thank you for questioning or challenging that phrase “breaking down,” because I guess I've never really thought about it beneath the surface of the words, and I think words do matter. So thank you for raising that. But what you're describing… I was describing departments that are 150 feet down the hall. You were working in situations where it might have been 150 degrees around the world. That's a different challenge.
Joy Mason: Yeah, it was and it was tough. But Mark, I just learned… usually when you come through it and you reflect back, you see how much you learned from it that's transferable to other projects. And it took me some time being away from the global project management. Then I could see there was so much to be gained and therefore applied to local projects, like you said, where folks are just a hallway away or a floor away. Those same types of principles regarding how you pull individuals together, there's still a core there of a skillset that applies.
Lean vs. Layoffs
Mark Graban: Thank you for sharing some of that background and experience. And you know, I'd like to come back and talk more about a phrase you brought up, “respect for people,” and maybe connect it back to what you had shared and what your thoughts are on “Lean versus Layoffs” as I remember you framing it. Can you share some of your thoughts on that?
Joy Mason: Oh, well, I have a lot of thoughts. I started talking about Lean versus Layoffs maybe the middle of last year because again, it seems like it is counterintuitive to our human nature to think about how we can utilize this rare moment that we're in here with the pandemic to optimize and maximize value first before we talk about cutting staff. It just seems like a knee-jerk reaction when we're in tough times.
I know that businesses, organizations, and agencies were hit hard, in some industries more than most with this lockdown that occurred last year. And there's so much uncertainty now and variability in work. So it makes sense that it's very tempting to think, “I've gotta cut my staff first.” But my challenge when I started talking about Lean before Layoffs is: Let's see if we can challenge ourselves. Press the pause button. And consider some of the principles.
When you cut employees, organizations may not consider that there is a negative effect. Yes, you're cutting some of the compensation and benefits, a big line item. That's true. But you're subjected to higher unemployment taxes. And what is not readily… what I don't hear people talking about is Survivor Syndrome. You have employees that are left behind and they're mourning the loss of their employees. That's really tough. These are folks that they've been maybe spending more time with compared to their family. So there's survivor syndrome and that can impact morale as well as productivity.
Then there's the cost of what it takes to even train employees. There's a lot of direct and indirect costs that go into bringing new people on board because this won't last forever. So that means you're gonna let people go and then you'll have to turn around and hire people. This won't last forever and when we come back, it's gonna be a surge. That means you're gonna have to turn around and hire people.
So I just wanted folks to hit the pause button and recognize there are some stats out there, Mark, where when it comes to administrative work, it is estimated that about 80% or higher of administrative work is kind of wasteful. Meaning that it's not contributing the value–and value as defined by the customer, not value as defined by us.
We in this field understand that value is defined by the customer. I've had several projects with teams, and this always turns out to be the case when they're not familiar with Lean or how you define value, where it is the busines27s that is trying to define the value. And when we do that, that means we're holding on to a lot of stuff that if the client or the customer found out that we were doing these things, they would say, “What in the heck are you doing? I don't see how that's related to what you're supposed to be delivering to me.” And so we have an emotional attachment because a lot of times we have created all this stuff. And when you create it, you're kind of attached to it. This is your baby. And it may not be adding value at all.
So when it comes to Lean before Layoffs, I am just asking that we pause and challenge ourselves. And if the research is true that around 80% give or take of administrative work is wasteful, let's take the time to examine what we do, how we do it, and get rid of that waste. And let's try to optimize what we're doing first. And then eventually if you need to let some people go… okay. The main goal is to make sure that we're not working on things that don't add value in this current climate. As a business, you can't afford to continue to work on things that are wasteful. It doesn't make sense for you as a company, and it doesn't make sense from the client perspective.
So that's what my challenge was when I said Lean before Layoffs. Maybe now is the time to really start examining what you do, how you do it. Maybe a business does not have to do a full value stream map, even though I would recommend it's a good exercise, but somehow have a strategy or approach to examining the work, identifying the value-added activities and the waste-mode activities.
In my certification, the acronym TIMWOOD stuck with me. Looking at transportation of materials, inventory, motion in between departments or just moving files. I know one individual I talked to a month ago, she worked for a fast-food restaurant and she said every quarter they looked at customer service data, and they were still in hard copies, paper copies of the data. And so they created these big binders of all this customer service related data for all these managers in the region. They put all these binders together, got in a car, went to a central location for these regional meetings, and you had all these binders. And they had these meetings reviewing the data. Look there with transportation: We're getting in the car, we're driving to a location. Materials: We've got all these binders, we've got paper. And that is all wasteful.2829
So she was involved in a project where they identified: We can have a virtual meeting, so we're not transporting from point A to point B. We can have electronic dashboards. We don30‘t need to generate papers and31 put them in a binder. With this project, that hits several elements of TIMWOOD in terms of transportation, motion, and probably overprocessing where you got just too many steps and you don't need it. That's a good example of: before you go cut an employee who needs that job, that's a great example of looking at a process where you can save so much by doing it differently. And again, when I was talking to this individual, she never said the word “Lean.” But that is Lean.
Mark Graban: And you know, you talk about Lean before Layoffs, there are some cases, even last year, it could be framed as Lean instead of Layoffs and rehiring. UMass Memorial Healthcare is a great example where I think in a lot of cases, the default in healthcare is to say, “Well, we don't have as much patient care to provide right now outside of COVID.” And you'll see releases where a spokesperson says, “We had no choice but to lay people off.” But it is a choice. That's the rub, right? So UMass Memorial and their CEO, Dr. Eric Dickson, who is a great student of Lean and a lean leader said, “No, we have a choice now.” He had to go make the case to his board. He said it wasn't an easy case to make, but it came down to mindsets. If you look at Jeff Liker's book The Toyota Way, of the 14 Principles, number one–and I'm sure it's number one for a reason–is Long-Term Perspective.
UMass Memorial was making that case of like, “We could let people go, furlough them, rehire them. There was a cost to doing that both financially and from the sake of the organization.” They paid people to work on improvement projects and to cross-train an32d to do things like Toyota would do to invest in their people. It was really powerful when I interviewed Dr. Dickson… he says the organization is better off once they got back to higher levels of care. So it wasn't just go back to normal, they were creating a new normal because they were investing in people.
This visceral reaction that people have to the word Lean… and we could say, “Oh, we could wish that it was a different word,” but I think a lot of this comes back to habit. Another well-ingrained, well-demonstrated habit to the employees is that “when times get tough, we will lay some of you off.” And so when people hear about Lean, they can't help but associate it to the habits that have already been there.
What I wanted to throw back at you as a question: When you talk about 80% of work being waste, does that lead to fear? People might say, “Well, does that mean you're gonna get rid of 80% of us?”
Joy Mason: I have not seen that reaction. Maybe I have not seen that reaction because normally with my clients, before we start working with the team or the staff, I have taken time with the leader to make sure that we are aligned on what the goals are. I want to understand the staff. In fact, I had a meeting this morni33ng with 34a potential prospect, and we had a conversation about: “Tell me about your people. Tell me about your team and what are some of the attitudes about what you're trying to do?” I need to understand that as I'm coming in and trying to support you.
So that is a very important piece so that when we organize the kickoff meeting, where I am introduced as the consultant, I always have the sponsor talk first. So the sponsor can share what the goals are, their commitment, and the process for this work. We are very mindful in the design of the kickoff to set the stage for what we're doing, why we're doing it, the benefits, the risk, and making sure that they understand that their roles are important. They're part of the process. Again, it goes back to respect for people.
And something that's very intertwined in my brand and approach, Mark, is transparency, sincerity, being very authentic and people-oriented. So when I speak to my clients and their teams, I want them to hear that from me, feel that from me in my body language. Because again, in communication, it's not mostly words, it's tone, it's body language. So in all ways that I communicate, I want them to feel my sincerity, so I don't get that reaction from teams. Now they may be thinking it, but it's not said. I don't feel that from them because hopefully they are feeling from the start of the project that we are very people-focused in what we're trying to do, and they are very much part of the goal that we're trying to accompli35sh.
Mark Graban: Yeah. And I think you touched earlier on the idea of certain roles might change. People might be assigned or retrained or given different or new opportunities. There was a hospital CEO I really admire, this is going back over a decade ago. He would tell his employees with Lean that they would commit to no layoffs. He said, “Now your job might change. But your paycheck is gonna be protected. And eliminating this waste and sometimes moving people around is necessary so that we can protect the paycheck to provide value to the customer, to make sure that the organization needed to have a positive bottom line.”
I would think, maybe turning to the work you do in nonprofits… there's been long advice even going back to manufacturing that Lean should be a growth strategy. So now you can redeploy people, maybe serve more customers now that you've reduced waste. It would seem like in the nonprofit space, this could be really motivating, that growth means serving more people with the same funds and contributions coming in the door.
Joy Mason: Yes. So growth, expanding the reach. A lot of times though, the majority of our focus is on maximizing the impact. So while growth is a motivator, what I have found when I am brought into the picture, Mark, there are issues with effectiveness. There are issues with the impact because that's what they're there for, is to have the impact with the people that they're serving. So with the 20 that they're serving, they want to reach optimal impact fi36rst, then talk about growth and scaling. Because if they don't have the fundamentals–the philosophy, mindset, culture strategies and frameworks–that help them be effective with the 20 that they have, if they try to grow to reach 30, they're still not going to have the impact that they're trying to have in the community.
Mark Graban: Well, that's a really good point. Maybe a different way of saying it is it's not just touching more people, it's having a greater impact with those people. So it's not just activity, it's outcomes.
Joy Mason: Absolutely. And in fact, there is some work that I was working on the report for this morning. It's actually a landscape analysis for financial literacy programming that occurs within Marion County. I've discovered some interesting things that are related to what we're talking about now. I surveyed 50 organizations. 37 replied, so that's 74%. And I asked each of the entities to list the zip codes of the clients that they're serving and also the number of clients.
I was looking at the results this morning. And actually all of the zip codes across Marion County are covered. And actually, between all of them, a total of a little over 59,000 citizens are being touched with these programs. So I saw that in the survey results, several of them talked about, “Well, they don't have enough reach. They want greater reach.”
But when I look at everything collectively, all zip codes are covered. And in fact, within each zip code, there are multiple resources that provide this type of programming. So do we really need everybody to try to continue to grow? I don't think so. That means that I think there's opportunity to look at other things. Like for example, with all the entities that provide this programming, maybe not everyone is providing the same programming. So how can we collaborate? Create coalitions or have more of a referral system?
And then how can we be more effective? Because we have more and more families who are–we call them ALICE families: Asset Limited, Income Constrained, but Employed. So we have more and more families that are falling in this category. Some people may assume, “Well, folks are just poor because they're too lazy to work.” No, you'd be surprised how many people are actually working, but they're struggling. So there's opportunity to figure out how do we be more effective for these families.
This survey will be very informative because I think agencies will see it's not about growth. We are resource rich in every zip code. But then the question is: Are we being very strategic and thoughtful about how we are delivering services, how we are collaborating across… I surveyed banks and nonprofit agencies, so those are silos. So how are we working across the different types of organizations to be more effective in what we're delivering? I think there's a lot of opportunity there, and I will not be emphasizing growth. Maybe we have duplication in one type of service, but then we have a gap over here. That's where the opportunities are in the analysis. But I think oftentimes, again, these knee-jerk reactions, we think, “Well, we gotta grow and reach more people.” No, I don't think so in this case. But it took the analysis to come to that conclusion.
Mark Graban: Well, and it seems like “we need to grow” is a countermeasure. So you raise a really good point, thinking back to whether we call it scientific problem solving or A3 problem solving. Like what really is the problem? What are the measures? What are the gaps? You make a great point. The gap is not reach. The gap is impact.
Joy Mason: Yes. And Mark, if I can add one more thing. Now being out here as a solopreneur and working with different clients who are across different sectors, a common denominator with every single client is not being clear on the problem. And that's the first step, the Define in DMAIC in Six Sigma. And I love Albert Einstein's quote where he said, “If I had an hour to work on a problem, I'd spend 55 minutes thinking about the problem and five minutes on the solution.” I love that. Because it turns out to be true with all the projects that I've worked on, where if we spend more time in understanding and defining the problem, it always leads to better solutions. Always.
The Optimist
Mark Graban: Maybe final question here, Joy. Coming back to the word “Optimist”–it is clearly an important word to you between the name of your company, Optimist Business Solutions, and your book The Optimist. What does being an optimist mean to you, and why is that so important?
Joy Mason: Thank you for the question. The word optimist is central to who I am, first of all. When I coach female leaders of organizations, one thing that I have them do is identify the four or five words that define them and they can look upon those words to help empower them and encourage them. Basically affirmations. One of my words is “optimism” because I sincerely believe with all my heart, there's no problem out there that we can't solve. I really believe that.
In the Optimist book where I talk about sustainable solutions for women in business, I talk about the willingness because again, I've had the experience of being with a client and the willingness was not there. So we're not going to get anywhere if you're not willing and curious and optimistic about the possibilities. So my overall philosophy is I start out with: We can solve this problem. And I can tell pretty quickly when I'm dealing with a leader who does not believe the problem can be solved. Because if y37ou don't believe, well 38then it can't be solved.
Mark Graban: That's self-fulfilling.
Joy Mason: Yes it is. So you've gotta start with the belief that it can be solved. So I bring that to my clients. We can do this. I know there's a way. Also what often I find myself telling folks is that somewhere out on the planet, somebody has figured this problem out. I know it. We can find a best practice on who is doing it and doing it well.
It's just ingrained in who I am. And then plus, I'm a spiritual person. I am a Christian. You don't have to be a Christian to be an optimist. I am just saying that there's a foundation there for me where I do believe in something that's bigger than me, bigger than humans. Just what we can contro39l. And I do believe that the universe is working for our good. If you believe it40… then that's the lens through which you will see the world. And so that's what I have chosen for my life.
I want to be at a higher vibration and bring that into the space. So it's who I am. And I wanted to make sure that the name of my company… yes, I'm about business and yes, I'm about solutions. But I'm bringing my values into what I do and what I bring to a client. So that's why it's Optimist Business Solutions.
Mark Graban: Well that's great. It makes me think around organizational culture… pointing out problems, pointing out waste, opportunities for improvement that sometimes gets people labeled as being negative. “Why are you being so negative?” Where I agree with you. It is inherently optimistic. Because I wouldn't point it out if I didn't think we could fix it. It's the person who says “We've tried solving that for 20 years and that's not solvable.” That's, to me, that's negative.
Joy Mason: Yes. It's funny, I think with all of us who are in this space and field, we've heard some very similar feedback and complaints. But again, we stay in the field because we're optimistic. We know we're going to hear the 41cynics. But I think we all have enough data points where we were able to bring an organization or a team along where they could see the light and see the benefit of continuous improvement and Lean and Six Sigma.
And again, it may not stick totally the way we would like it. And so that's something that I've had to let go of as well. But if we can see that we've changed the mindset a little bit and moved the needle a little bit and made some progress, then that's a good thing. That's something that I've kind of learned early on in this entrepreneurial venture.
Mark Graban: Yeah. And so if people want to learn more about said venture and contact you again, Joy Mason from Optimist Business Solutions… your website is?
Joy Mason: My website is Optimist Indy, so that's Optimist with a T there INDY dot com: optimistindy.com. And you'll see all my information there as well as my contact information. But I'll give my email, it's the letter J Mason–jmason–at optimistindy.com and I'd be more than happy to have a short chat with anyone who wants to hear more or explore a little more.
Mark Graban: Well, great. And that's Indy as in Indianapolis, not as in independent.
Joy Mason: Indianapolis, INDY.
Mark Graban: So thank you for the work that you're continuing to do, Joy, in your community with nonprofit organizations. It's great to hear that there are applications of these approaches there. I'm glad you're working toward greater impact. So thank you Joy for being a great guest and for sharing a lot of your experiences and a lot of thought-provoking moments. Thank you for all of that.
Joy Mason: Well, thank you, Mark. It's been a pleasure and I've been looking forward to being with you. I continue to follow you. So thank you for everything that you are doing in this space and trying to share what's going on in the lean world and continuing also to inspire the rest of us who are maybe at different points in our journey. So I appreciate your contribution as well.
Mark Graban: Okay. Well, thank you. That's too kind, but I appreciate that. So, Joy, thank you so much for doing this. I'm gonna sign you up to do this again someday. How's that?
Joy Mason: Okay, that'll work. Thank you.
Mark Graban: We'll take a deeper dive maybe into the types of work that you're doing in the nonprofit space. I feel like we only scratched the surface on that.
Joy Mason: Okay. I would like that. Thanks.
Mark Graban: To learn more about Joy Mason and her work, you can find links and show notes and more by going to leanblog.org/407. Thanks for listening. Thanks for subscribing. Please rate and review the podcast if you like what you hear.
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