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In Episode #465 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast, Mark Graban welcomes back legendary author, consultant, and speaker Tom Peters. Known worldwide for In Search of Excellence and decades of thought leadership on management and culture, Tom joined the show to talk about his latest book, Tom Peters' Compact Guide to Excellence. Co-authored with designer Nancy Green, the book distills core ideas from Excellence Now: Extreme Humanism into a visually compelling and highly accessible guide.
He was previously a guest in Episode 382 of this podcast and My Favorite Mistake Episode 58. See previous blog posts about Tom and his ideas.
The conversation covers a wide range of themes: why “extreme humanism” is the leadership approach needed most today, the moral bankruptcy of maximizing shareholder value, and how caring deeply about people isn't just ethical–it's good business. Tom shares candid views on leaders like Elon Musk, stories from the HP Way and management by wandering around, and reflections on how to create genuine connection in today's hybrid and remote workplaces.
As always with Tom, this is a fun, free-flowing, and provocative discussion. You'll hear his take on leadership as an “intimate act,” why innovation often thrives in small and medium enterprises, and why caring for employees–like Paul O'Neill's commitment to safety at Alcoa–creates contagious excellence across the organization. If you want a bracing reminder that business is fundamentally about people, this episode is a must-listen.
Today, Tom and I talk about some core concepts from his book, but we also weave through many topics including leadership that demonstrates “extreme humanism” (and leaders who do not, such as Elon Musk). As always, it's a fun, free-wheeling, and thought-provoking conversation when Tom is involved.
Note: Tom says he swears like a sailor… there are a few occasional mild curse words, so please be warned about that.
The podcast is sponsored by Stiles Associates, now in their 30th year of business. They are the go-to Lean recruiting firm serving the manufacturing, private equity, and healthcare industries. Learn more.
This podcast is part of the #LeanCommunicators network.
Key Quotes:
“Effective leadership is an intimate act. It's about human connection.”
“Being good is good business. When you take the high moral ground, it's difficult for anyone to object without sounding like a complete fool.”
“The moral bankruptcy of maximizing shareholder value has left 91% of profits for stock buybacks and executive pay–only 9% for the workforce.”
“You can change someone's day with a smile or a kind word. Caring is contagious.”
“Extreme humanism isn't optional–it's the only way to thrive in the age of AI and disruption.”
“I learned at HP that management by wandering around wasn't a gimmick–it was a profound act of respect and connection.”
Video of the Episode:
Two Clips – on Elon Musk and Twitter
When asked about Elon Musk's leadership style, Tom Peters didn't hold back. He said Musk's behavior toward staff has been “appalling” and that his management approach reflects a lack of basic respect for people. Peters noted reports of toxic culture and increased tolerance for harmful content on Twitter under Musk's ownership.
At the same time, Peters added one important caveat: Musk deserves credit for popularizing the electric vehicle, which has had a profound positive impact on the auto industry and climate change efforts. Peters called this the “one asterisk” in Musk's legacy–acknowledging that while his treatment of people is deeply problematic, his role in accelerating EV adoption is significant.
Overall, Peters painted Musk as an example of innovation and technical achievement paired with deeply flawed, inhumane leadership.
The conversation turned to Twitter and whether to remain active on the platform under Elon Musk's ownership. Tom Peters admitted he was conflicted: he's been active on Twitter for years and values the real human connections it has created, but he's troubled by the platform's direction.
Mark Graban shared that he had recently logged out of Twitter after Musk attacked Dr. Anthony Fauci in a way that was both disrespectful and transphobic. For Mark, that crossed a moral line–he didn't want to continue contributing to a platform that tolerated or amplified that behavior.
Peters responded that Mark's decision might have been the most important part of their entire conversation. He confessed he had stayed on Twitter partly out of self-interest–to promote his new book–but said Mark's choice gave him “a hardy push” toward reconsidering his own participation. Peters framed the issue not as a scolding but as an alignment with the very values they had just been discussing: caring, moral leadership, and extreme humanism.
Thanks for listening or watching!
This podcast is part of the Lean Communicators network — check it out!
Automated Transcript (Not Guaranteed to be Defect Free)
Announcer:
Welcome to the Lean Blog Podcast. Visit our website at www.leanblog.org. Now, here's your host, Mark Graban.
Mark Graban:
Hi, it's Mark Graban. Thanks for listening. It's Episode 465 of the podcast, Tuesday, December 13, 2022. My guest today–returning guest–is Tom Peters, the author, consultant, and speaker. He was previously on Episode 382 of this podcast back in 2020, and also joined me on my other show, My Favorite Mistake (Episode 58).
As always with Tom, this is a fun and thought-provoking conversation. One quick note: Tom jokes that he “swears like a sailor.” There are just a few mild curse words, nothing you wouldn't hear on network TV, but I want to give that disclaimer.
If you'd like links to the previous episodes and Tom's new book, or to enter to win a copy of it, visit leanblog.org/465. This is the last episode for the year, so happy holidays to everyone, and we'll see you in 2023.
Tom, welcome back–how are you?
Tom Peters:
I'm good. Wow, Episode 465 already? That's amazing. Back in 2020 I was on Episode 382. That's a big number you've reached.
Mark Graban:
It is–over 16 years of doing this. You could say “way to go,” or you could say, “get a life!”
Tom Peters:
No, way to go. Sixteen years ago you were a pioneer. That's 2006–we didn't even have Zoom. What did you use back then?
Mark Graban:
Phone calls, and then Skype.
Tom Peters:
Yes–Skype! I remember when “you're Skyping someone” was a big deal. People forget how memorable long-distance calls used to be.
Mark Graban:
And now here we are on Zoom. Where are you zooming in from?
Tom Peters:
South Dartmouth, Massachusetts–on the South Coast, 70 miles south of Boston. About 15 miles from New Bedford, which I mention because it was once the richest city in the world from whale oil. Then hydrocarbons were discovered, and that was the end of that.
Mark Graban:
Better for the whales.
Tom Peters:
Much better for the whales.
Mark Graban:
For listeners who want to learn more about Tom, go to tompeters.com — or an even better way, his new redirect: giveashitism.com. Tom, what prompted you to register that domain?
Tom Peters:
I'm active on Twitter, and I talk endlessly about caring–taking incredibly good care of people. I wanted a word stronger than “caring.” I'm an old sailor, so I thought, “Mark really gives a shit about these programs.” That's stronger than “Mark really cares.” I checked if giveashitism.com was available, and it was. It's not meant to be saltier than necessary, but it captures the idea in a commanding way.
Mark Graban:
Today we're talking about your most recent book. Tom Peters' Compact Guide to Excellence. Congratulations–it's small, beautifully designed, and based on your earlier book Excellence Now: Extreme Humanism.
Tom Peters:
Thank you. Yes, this book is a collaboration with Nancy Green, a brilliant designer. She helped me rethink not just the words but the look, feel, and design of the book. I almost think she should be listed first as co-author.
Mark Graban:
Let's talk about “extreme humanism.” And as a counterexample, I have to ask about Elon Musk. What are your thoughts on his leadership style?
Tom Peters:
His behavior toward staff has been appalling. From what we read, he's giving more free rein to toxic behavior online. I don't like the way he treats people. That said, I must give him credit for one thing: he put electric vehicles on the map. That's a major contribution to climate change mitigation. But the way he treats human beings? Terrible.
Mark Graban:
You've also argued that innovation usually comes from small and medium enterprises, not giant corporations.
Tom Peters:
The statistics are clear. The Fortune 500 employs only about 8% of us. Over 90% of us work for small and midsize businesses. SMEs have created over 100% of new jobs–the Fortune 500 has been shedding jobs while SMEs add them. But gurus like me often focus too much on the big companies.
And here's a moral point: in 1970 Milton Friedman wrote that corporations have no social responsibility. At that time, 50% of profits went to shareholders and executives, and 50% to people and R&D. By 2014, McKinsey found 91% of profits going to shareholders, buybacks, and exec pay–only 9% to the workforce. That shift explains a lot of despair and disruption today.
Mark Graban:
The Conference Board has said corporations should focus on stakeholders, not just shareholders. Do you think that's real or lip service?
Tom Peters:
Millions of SMEs already behave responsibly. But among the Fortune 250 or 500, I don't see much change. Maybe hybrid work will push some morality into the system–companies can't just squeeze people the way they used to.
Mark Graban:
You wrote long ago about “the brand called you.” What's been misunderstood about that idea?
Tom Peters:
People think it's about self-marketing. It's not. It's about standing for something. You can't rely on long-term jobs anymore. You have to be known for your contributions. And your network matters–you are as powerful as the relationships you've built.
Mark Graban:
In the book you wrote, “Being good is good business. When you take the high moral ground, it's difficult for anyone to object without sounding like a complete fool.” Could you elaborate?
Tom Peters:
Yes. The epigraph of the book is from Anita Roddick, founder of The Body Shop: “I want to work for a company that contributes to the community. I want something to believe in.” That says it all.
Leadership is about caring. There was a U.S. Army general, Melvin Zais, who told officers: “The one thing that will bring you more success than anything else is–you must care.” Caring changes everything.
Mark Graban:
That reminds me of Paul O'Neill at Alcoa, who declared that no employee should ever get hurt at work. Safety first led to “habitual excellence.”
Tom Peters:
Exactly. When you commit to something like safety, it's contagious. It demonstrates caring, and excellence follows. Even small gestures matter–you can change a grocery clerk's day with a smile. There's research showing that when teachers greet students by name with a smile, behavior problems drop by 30% and academic engagement rises 20%.
Mark Graban:
You've also spoken about the HP Way. Could you share that story?
Tom Peters:
Yes. In 1979, Bob Waterman and I visited Hewlett-Packard. The president, John Young, personally greeted us in the lobby. His office was a small cubicle with clear walls. He introduced us to the HP Way–“management by wandering around.” He took us on a walk through engineering spaces, greeting people by name. Then he introduced us to Bill Hewlett himself, who was deeply engaged with a young engineer at a computer screen. That day I learned: leadership is an intimate act.
Mark Graban:
Now in the age of remote work, you've joked about “management by zooming around.” Can it be as effective?
Tom Peters:
I was skeptical at first, but yes, Zoom can be intimate. I feel as connected to you now as if we were across a desk. But some spontaneity–like hallway chats–can't be replicated. Likely the future is hybrid: a couple of days in the office, some at home. What matters most is whether leaders genuinely care about people's lives and circumstances.
Mark Graban:
So if leaders “give a shit,” they'll figure out how to connect–Zoom or otherwise.
Tom Peters:
Exactly. And I'd argue extreme humanism is more important than ever in the age of AI. Jobs will be disrupted, but humane leadership will matter even more. As Apple's Jony Ive said: “In some tiny way, we are trying to serve humanity.” Even in technology, you can code with decency.
Mark Graban:
I want to thank you, Tom. On a personal note, the first time you replied to one of my tweets, I was amazed–“Tom Peters read something I wrote!” That interaction meant a lot, and I appreciate the connection we've had since.
Tom Peters:
Thank you. I've had similar experiences. On Twitter I struck up a conversation with Enron whistleblower Sharon Watkins, and now we chat like ordinary people. Social media can enable real human connections. Which is why it's distressing to see what Musk is doing.
Mark Graban:
Yes, I recently logged out of Twitter after Musk attacked Dr. Fauci in a transphobic and disrespectful way. I didn't want to be part of supporting that platform anymore.
Tom Peters:
I think your last few sentences might be the most important part of this whole conversation. I've compromised, staying for book promotion. But I agree with you–the Fauci attack crossed a moral line. Thank you for pushing me to reflect on this.
Mark Graban:
Well, Tom, thank you. And congratulations again on Tom Peters' Compact Guide to Excellence. Everyone should check it out.
Tom Peters:
Thank you, Mark. And let me add: Nancy Green deserves just as much credit–she's a co-author, not just a designer. The look, feel, and accessibility of the book is all thanks to her.
Mark Graban:
Wonderful. Thanks again, Tom.
Tom Peters:
Thanks for your time, Mark.
Announcer:
Thanks for listening. This has been the Lean Blog Podcast. For Lean news and commentary updated daily, visit www.leanblog.org.
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