Joining me for Episode #241 is a returning guest and friend of mine, Dan Markovitz (@DanMarkovitz on Twitter). He was a guest on Episodes #135 (talking about A Factory of One) and #52 (talking more generally about office Lean). He has also written a number of guest posts here. Oh, and he has his own blog.
Today we're talking about his most recent book, Building the Fit Organization: Six Core Principles for Making Your Company Stronger, Faster, and More Competitive, which, like his first book, is a recipient of the Shingo Research and Publication Award. Congrats!
Dan reframes Lean through the metaphor of physical fitness–making the concepts of improvement more accessible and relatable while avoiding unnecessary jargon.
Dan also explains why many Lean transformations struggle, pointing to the barriers created by overreliance on Toyota case studies, Japanese terms, or tool-driven approaches. By comparing continuous improvement to personal fitness, he highlights how lasting change comes from daily practice and sustainable habits, not quick fixes or crash diets.
This first part of a two-episode conversation covers three of the book's six principles: commit to improvement, increase value instead of cutting costs, and think horizontally across the organization. Along the way, Dan and Mark discuss parallels between fitness and organizational health, the importance of pacing change to avoid triggering resistance, and the need to align improvement with what truly matters to customers.
Listeners will come away with practical lessons on building a stronger, more adaptable organization–one where continuous improvement is part of the culture, not just a project.
Streaming Player
For a link to this episode, refer people to www.leanblog.org/241.
For earlier episodes of my podcast, visit the main Podcast page, which includes information on how to subscribe via RSS, through Android apps, or via Apple Podcasts. You can also subscribe and listen via Stitcher.
We ended up doing two episodes to cover the six main themes of the book. Today, we're covering the first three:
- Commit to improvement.
- Increase value. Don't cut costs.
- Think horizontally.
We also chat about the parallels between personal fitness and organizational “fitness,” the idea of being “fit” versus being “Lean,” and finding the right balance in using Japanese words or not. It was a fun conversation and I hope you enjoy it.
Part two of the podcast will be released either as episode #242 or #243.
Transcript:
Announcer:
Welcome to the Lean Blog Podcast. Visit our website at www.leanblog.org. Now, here's your host, Mark Graban.
Mark Graban:
Hi, this is Mark Graban. Welcome to episode 241. It's February 10th, 2016. Joining me today is a returning guest and a good friend, Dan Markovitz. He was a guest on episode 135, talking about his first book, titled A Factory of One, and episode 52, talking more generally about Lean in office settings.
Today, we're talking about his most recent book, which is titled Building the Fit Organization: Six Core Principles for Making Your Company Stronger, Faster, and More Competitive.1 This book, like his first, is a recipient of the Shingo Research and Publication Award, so congratulations to Dan.2
We ended up doing two episodes to cover the six main themes of the book. Today, we're covering the first three, which are:
- Commit to improvement3
- Increase value, don't cut costs4
- Think horizontally
We also talk about a number of things, including the parallels between personal fitness and organizational fitness, the idea of being “fit” versus being “Lean,” and finding the right balance in using Japanese words. So it's always fun to talk with Dan. I hope you enjoy the conversation.
Dan, hi. Thanks for being a guest here on the podcast.
Dan Markovitz:
Mark, it's a pleasure to be back. Thanks for having me.
The Story Behind “Building the Fit Organization”
Mark Graban:
For those who haven't listened to the old episodes, Dan was a guest in episode 52 talking about Office Lean and back in episode 135 talking about his previous book, A Factory of One. We're here to talk about your new book, Building the Fit Organization. Dan, why don't we just jump in? It would be interesting to hear the story behind the book.
Dan Markovitz:
Well, Mark, the book came out of the last few years of frustration that I've had, and I think a lot of other Lean practitioners have had, which is the concepts of Lean make so much sense and the benefits seem so apparent, and yet when you look across the landscape, it's littered with the carcasses of failed Lean implementations. I was trying to understand why so many implementations fail.
That's a pretty complicated question, and I suspect the problem has a lot of root causes. But one of the causes, I think, is that we as Lean practitioners are excited by the history of Lean. We're excited about what Taiichi Ohno did at Toyota. We go around talking about Toyota and we start using the Japanese words. And I think we forget that to the uninitiated, we're speaking a foreign language, both literally and metaphorically. We're talking about yokoten and kamishibai, and we're talking about 5S and kanban, and people are looking at us like, “What are you talking about?”
I suspect, for example, the folks at GM or Delco are not terribly happy to learn about what Toyota does. So my thought is we're asking people to think and act differently, and then we're putting in their way both emotional and intellectual hurdles. I wanted to tell a story about improvement that didn't reference Toyota, that doesn't use Japanese, that doesn't even use the word “Lean.” I wanted to tell a story in a way that I felt anyone could relate to, and the metaphor I'm using is one of physical fitness.
I used to be a competitive track and field and cross-country runner, and I used to coach high school cross-country, so that resonated with me. And based on my experience, I saw a lot… because really, when you're an athlete, it's all about continuous improvement. “How do I get faster tomorrow and next week and the month after?” I thought, “Well, I can take the same principles that we embed in the language of Lean and tell stories about athletic fitness or personal physical fitness that I think anyone can relate to.”
Mark Graban:
And I think, I'm sure this was your goal, making something relatable doesn't mean dumbing it down.
Dan Markovitz:
That's exactly right. I'm not trying to dumb it down. What I'm trying to do is present the principles of continuous improvement. Now, as you get deeper into it, you will most likely need to figure out how to create kanbans and you'll want to know how to create U-shaped cells if you're in a manufacturing facility. You will eventually have to dig into the tools. But for the basic concepts of continuous improvement, I think they're fairly simple. If I can present those concepts and principles in a user-friendly manner, then people will say, “Oh yeah, that makes total sense.”
Principle 1: Commit to Improvement
Mark Graban:
I like what I hear you saying: introducing Lean methods and principles and even tools as the need arises.
Dan Markovitz:
I think about when I was coaching high school cross-country. I could have talked to them about racing strategy at the very beginning of the season, and it would have meant absolutely nothing to them. I was really trying to get these kids used to the idea of running every day and thinking about what pacing means and getting them used to understanding the difference between being hurt and just being fatigued.
I gave them the information and taught them what they needed to know at that particular time. When it came to race day, I would talk about the particular tactics they would need because it was raining or windy or hot. Rather than filling their heads with stuff that they couldn't use a month prior to the race, I would talk about it when it was time to use that particular tool. And hopefully, by giving the kids what they needed to know in right-sized batches, if you will, they were then more able to understand and implement the tools.
Mark Graban:
I've always described Lean as a lifestyle. It's not a crash diet. It's not an easy diet pill. I don't think there's a weight loss program out there that says, “Okay, you want to lose weight? We need to put you through this week-long course and certify you as a something-belt.”
Dan Markovitz:
You know, that reminds me of something. I know you wrote about this. I don't remember if you did a podcast with Robert Maurer at UCLA.
Mark Graban:
Yes, I did.
Dan Markovitz:
Right. He talked about how large change activates the amygdala, the “lizard brain” that Seth Godin calls it–the fight-or-flight response. If you're trying to talk about fitness and you say, “Okay, you need to lose 100 pounds,” you're just going to scare the crap out of people. It's such a big change. But if you say, “Okay, listen, when you're watching TV, what I'd like you to do instead of sitting on the couch is just walk in place for one minute,” that's something totally manageable. It's not a big deal.
I think the same is true with embracing continuous improvement. We're not trying to improve productivity by 25% in one day. We're not trying to lower costs by 30% in one kaizen event. It's different, of course, if you're Toyota and you've been doing this for 65 years, but if you're just beginning, setting these huge goals is a mistake.
Mark Graban:
I'd like to dovetail into the first of the six principles from the book, this idea of “commit to improvement.” What can you get people to commit to, and how do you recommend going about that?
Dan Markovitz:
As I said earlier, I think the idea here is that we're committing to being better. Steve Young pointed out that the key is to be better than you were yesterday. And to me, that's committing to improvement. We're not asking you to change the entire management system overnight. We just want to be a little bit better tomorrow than we are today.
I think Paul Akers really has nailed it with this idea of “2-Second Lean.” “How can I get 2 seconds better tomorrow?” I'm not going to worry about overhauling the entire management structure. Just two seconds. And eventually, you'll get to the point where you are reorganizing a production line.
To me, the physical fitness parallel really holds true here. If you're going to commit to physical fitness, that doesn't mean you're going to go to the gym once a month. It means you're going to be doing something for physical fitness every single day. That, I think, is how you see a culture of continuous improvement start to take hold. A kaizen event is episodic improvement, not continuous improvement. That's not to say that you can't do kaizen events; absolutely do them, but it should be incorporated as part of continuous improvement.
Mark Graban:
So, bringing it back to the workplace, how is that commitment detected? How do you know if an organization has commitment?
Dan Markovitz:
At the risk of sounding horribly sycophantic, my thinking on this, Mark, has really been influenced a lot by what you've done with Kinexus and your own consulting. The idea of having visible boards where people's idea cards and suggestions are posted, with simple tracking of how many ideas we're getting, what percentage of participation, how long does it take from idea to implementation.
The leadership team absolutely should be part of this as well. I think having their ideas on the board so that everyone sees, “Oh yeah, the CEO and the president and the VP of operations, they're all part of this. They're just like us,” that's an incredibly powerful symbol that we're all involved in this together.
It reminds me of one of my biggest failures as a consultant. I was working with a company, and they had this initiative for a culture of continuous improvement. Everything seemed great, and it never gained traction. In retrospect, what happened is that the senior team didn't change the way they worked at all. They were still in their offices; they never walked around to see any A3s posted on the wall. It wasn't something that “we, the senior team” were involved in. People can smell if something is a serious commitment or not.
Principle 2: Increase Value, Don't Cut Costs
Mark Graban:
So once that commitment is there, the second principle you talk about is “increase value, don't cut costs.”5 I've been bemoaning organizations that have equated Lean with cost-cutting and then wonder why their employees aren't interested. How do you frame it in the book in terms of fitness, value versus cost?
Dan Markovitz:
Using the metaphor of physical fitness, this is the same as saying you want to focus on fitness, not on weight loss. If you focus on weight loss, first of all, it's dispiriting because all you see is suffering and reduction of stuff that you like.
Mark Graban:
I was working with a trainer last year who emphasized it's not just about weight. That's one number. This is about fitness.6 You're going to lose some fat and gain some muscle.
Dan Markovitz:
Right. And in fact, if all you do is focus on weight, you end up in a literally unhealthy place. You end up anorexic or bulimic because that's the fastest way to lose weight. It doesn't make you healthy at all. Increasing fitness means becoming stronger, more flexible, having lower blood pressure. Similarly, for a company, it's not about cutting costs; it's about increasing the amount of value you can provide to customers.
In a healthcare situation, it may mean being able to get people into an MRI more quickly. Maybe it means you turn around lab tests in one day instead of two. In a non-healthcare setting, perhaps it means you are able to deliver products faster. There was one company I was working with that did custom lighting. They used to measure “time to delivery.” And then they said, “Wait a minute, we could increase the value we deliver to customers not by measuring time to delivery, but time to installation.” That's something that leads to all kinds of different things. It's not a matter of, “Hey, listen, we shipped it.” It's, “It's going to be installed and calibrated faster.”
Mark Graban:
This reminds me of a story from when I worked at Dell Computer. There was so much advertised about getting computers custom-built and delivered within five days. And then we learned sometimes that a company that ordered 1,000 computers was actually very unhappy if they arrived too soon because now they had a loading dock full of computers and didn't have the IT people ready. So there was this understanding that value sometimes meant the promised date, not faster.
Principle 3: Think Horizontally
Mark Graban:
I want to move on to the third principle, “thinking horizontally.” When we focus on flow instead of costs, I think that's where thinking horizontally is really helpful. How do you explain this idea to people?
Dan Markovitz:
Using the fitness metaphor, it's the notion of training for a specific event. If I am training for a powerlifting competition, I'm going to be training in a different way than if I'm training for a marathon. Having a specific focus–where am I going?–affects and influences what it is I'm going to be doing.
Similarly, if we start looking at our different types of customers as different events, we need to be servicing them differently. When I was at Asics, one of my first jobs was to essentially act as a value stream manager for the specialty running stores. We used to treat them exactly the same way we treated the big chains, like Foot Locker, but they have entirely different needs. It wasn't until we started looking at them differently and thinking, “What do these guys need to compete effectively?” that we started changing the way our company operated in order to support them.
Instead of thinking vertically in our functional silos–“The credit department wants this, the sales department wants this”–we started thinking, “What does the customer want and what does the customer need? And then how do we set up our processes so that we can serve them?”
Mark Graban:
Keeping the end in mind.
Dan Markovitz:
Very much. That's a simple and elegant way of saying it. And what does that end require? That's one of the Covey habits, right? Start with the end in mind. If you go to a trainer, the trainer is going to start with, “Well, what are your goals, Mark? Are you trying to run a marathon or are you trying to lose a little weight?” And he or she is going to tailor the exercises and activities to help you meet that specific goal.
Conclusion to Part One
Mark Graban:
Well, and I think this is all thought-provoking. I'm going to suggest, Dan, we've touched on the first three principles from the book. Maybe we can do a part two of the podcast and not shortchange the last three. In the meantime, if people can't wait and they want to get the book and find you online, what's the best way for people to do that?
Dan Markovitz:
Let's see. Online, you can find my website with all articles and resources at markovitzconsulting.com. You can contact me via email: dan@markovitzconsulting.com. I tweet under my name, Dan Markovitz. And my books are available where all fine books are sold: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and 800-CEO-READ. I just received in the mail yesterday audio versions of the book, so there's actually an audio version of it.
Mark Graban:
Oh, great.
Dan Markovitz:
And just to let you know, Mark, part of the self-promotion thing: my book was just awarded a Shingo Research Prize, so I'm delighted to be able to announce that as well.
Mark Graban:
That's what I was just about to announce on your behalf. So congratulations on that recognition. So again, our guest has been Dan Markovitz. We're talking about Building the Fit Organization. We'll come back real soon with part two of the discussion. And Dan, thank you. Great talking to you as always.
Dan Markovitz:
You're very welcome, Mark. It's been a real pleasure for me.
Videos and Webinars with Dan Markovitz
Thanks for listening!
Please scroll down (or click) to post a comment. Connect with me on LinkedIn.
Let’s build a culture of continuous improvement and psychological safety—together. If you're a leader aiming for lasting change (not just more projects), I help organizations:
- Engage people at all levels in sustainable improvement
- Shift from fear of mistakes to learning from them
- Apply Lean thinking in practical, people-centered ways
Interested in coaching or a keynote talk? Let’s talk.
Join me for a Lean Healthcare Accelerator Trip to Japan! Learn More
, and think horizontally.){kind=link}
[…] Podcast #241 – @DanMarkovitz, “Building the Fit Organization,” Part 1 […]