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My guest for Episode #533 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast is Cheryl Jekiel, founder of the Lean Leadership Center and a longtime advocate for aligning continuous improvement with people-centered leadership.
Cheryl is the author of Lean Human Resources, and her latest book, Let Go to Lead: Six Habits for Happier, More Independent Teams (with Less Stress and More Time for Yourself), offers a practical and deeply human approach to modern leadership. With a background in HR and operations, Cheryl has spent decades helping organizations shift from hierarchical control to empowering, team-driven excellence.
In this episode, Cheryl shares her “Lean origin story,” which began with a broken-down Ford and a transformative experience at Sweetheart Cup, where she witnessed firsthand how Lean thinking and redefined leadership roles could enhance both performance and the quality of work life. We discuss the importance of clarity in leadership–why vague directives like “take ownership” or “be proactive” often fail without behavioral specificity–and how shifting from being the problem-solver to being the coach can help leaders reduce stress and build truly independent teams. Cheryl also highlights how many organizations discuss empowerment but lack the necessary structures or shared understanding to actually enable it.
“We keep saying 'empower people,' but most organizations haven't defined what that actually means.”
We also explore topics like vulnerability in leadership, the power of peer support communities, and how concepts like motivational interviewing–borrowed from healthcare and addiction counseling–can help leaders foster meaningful behavior change. Cheryl makes a compelling case for leadership as a practiced skill, not a fixed trait, and she encourages organizations to treat leadership development as an ongoing discipline. Whether you're an executive, HR leader, or improvement coach, this conversation offers actionable insight into how leaders can truly “let go to lead.”
Questions, Notes, and Highlights:
- What's your Lean origin story, and how did it shape your thinking?
- How did your early experience at Sweetheart Cup influence your views on leadership and improvement?
- Did you start your career in HR, or was that a later shift?
- What led you to write Lean Human Resources and later start the Lean Leadership Center?
- What was the inspiration for your new book, Let Go to Lead?
- Are the six habits in your book rooted in traditional Lean leadership concepts, or do they expand on them?
- Why is clarity such a critical leadership skill, and why do so many leaders struggle with it?
- How do vague directives like “be proactive” or “take ownership” get in the way of effective leadership?
- What role does psychological safety play in helping teams ask clarifying questions?
- What's one of the habits you've found most overlooked or undervalued by leaders?
- Why is community and peer support so essential to leadership development?
- How do you help leaders embrace vulnerability in a culture that doesn't always reward it?
- What's the role of ongoing practice in leadership development, and why isn't it emphasized more?
- How does motivational interviewing relate to Lean leadership and coaching?
- How can leaders avoid the trap of trying to be “right” rather than being helpful?
- Why is “meeting people where they are” such a vital leadership practice?
- What advice would you give to leaders who want to let go of control without abdicating responsibility?
- What's the connection between letting go and reducing stress for leaders?
- Is there anything else you'd like to share about your book or your work?
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Automated Transcript (Not Guaranteed to be Defect Free)
Mark Graban:
Hi, welcome to Lean Blog Interviews. I'm your host, Mark Graban. Our guest today is Cheryl Jekiel. She is the founder of the Lean Leadership Center. Her team helps people-centric organizations integrate continuous improvement into their systems and culture.
She's the author of a new book titled Let Go to Lead: Six Habits for Happier, More Independent Teams (with Less Stress and More Time for Yourself). So we're going to talk about that and more. Cheryl has spent the last couple of years building an innovative leadership development approach that has successfully generated leaders who are capable of coaching their teams to work independently.
Cheryl is also the author of a book that's now in its second edition titled Lean Human Resources: Redesigning HR Processes for a Culture of Continuous Improvement.
So Cheryl, welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Cheryl Jekiel:
Hi, Mark. I'm excited to be here with you. Yeah, I like these topics–these are my favorite things to talk about, so this will be fun.
Mark Graban:
Of course. And, you know, you and I were both having to jog our memories. I'm surprised–you and I have talked so often and we run into each other at places like the Shingo Conference, the AME Conference every year. I'm surprised–and I had to go double-check–that you haven't been on the podcast before.
Cheryl Jekiel:
I thought we had talked about Lean Human Resources at some point!
Mark Graban:
Yeah, me too! But the computer has a better memory than I do–I don't think we did.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Well, now we're here. So this is our first one… hopefully one of a few.
Mark Graban:
Sure–there's a lot to talk about. And congratulations again on the launch of the new book Let Go to Lead. Before we dive into that, I'd love to hear your Lean origin story. There are so many different starting points and pathways to this kind of work. What's yours?
Cheryl Jekiel:
I think I tell it one of two ways. The one I remember easiest is… my first car was a Ford LTD, and everything broke on this car. I had a Ford mechanic, and I was at that age where a car repair bill of three or four hundred dollars was painful. Like, “How many months am I going to have to work to pay this off?”
So the Ford mechanic, at one point–I remember, I pulled off the handle–and he says, “Yeah, that was made to break at around 50,000 miles.” And I'm thinking, “That's no good.”
(By the way, when I sold that car, the Ford mechanic bought it because he was prepared to deal with it.)
My second car was a Toyota Camry. I drove it for 70,000 miles, and nothing broke at all.
Cheryl Jekiel:
So somewhere in there, there was this lesson that was personal to me about the benefit of making things that don't break compared to things that do.
Then I started working at Sweetheart Cup–they make straws, paper plates, and that kind of thing. They've changed hands many times; they were bought by Solo, so you probably know them by that name. My first Lean transformation happened there. It was the first transformation I ever saw, and honestly, it's still the best I've seen.
It was a complete overhaul, and there were so many lessons from that. That's where my love of Lean HR came from. One big lesson was that “defect-free” had never really hit my radar until then.
They completely transformed how leadership operated. Leaders had to re-interview for their roles. Some were moved into technical specialist positions, and others became coaches–given more people to lead, but their job was to coach people. The company reorganized around that. It was a very big shift.
I have so many stories that still touch my heart. One is about a forklift driver named Pete. I had seen him just driving a forklift every day, doing the same thing, not talking to many people. Then we launched interdepartmental problem-solving teams–back then it was called “Total Quality.”
And I saw people who had been doing the same tasks all day, every day, now suddenly solving real business problems as a team. Pete became a facilitator in one of those teams. That change–it was just amazing. It showed me Lean creates whole life adventures for people they never would've had otherwise.
That's what hooked me. For me, it's about quality of life. It's about seeing people come alive and unleash their skills and talents that would otherwise lie dormant.
Mark Graban:
Not just the quality of the product, but hand in hand with the quality of the work experience.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Exactly.
Mark Graban:
It reminds me–General Motors had programs going back to the '70s and '80s called QWL–Quality of Work Life. It was a precursor to some of this thinking. But too often, even today, companies say they care about people, but they only implement a few Lean tools or do some Kaizen events.
Cheryl Jekiel:
At Sweetheart, they literally turned the place on its side. They had a lot to gain and a lot to lose, and they went all in. No sacred cows. They were going to do whatever it took.
Since then, I've seen a lot of companies say they want transformation, but they're not really willing to do the hard things required. And that's what it takes–real effort, real change.
Mark Graban:
Did you start your career in HR, or did you end up there later?
Cheryl Jekiel:
My family ran a business–I worked for my father in financial services until my mid-20s. I had already worked in investments and insurance, but I told him I wanted to leave and work in HR. He looked at me like I said I wanted to join the circus. “You want to go where and do what?”
So I got my first HR job doing whatever I could to break in without starting over completely. I worked my way through various roles. And again, back at Sweetheart, I remember sitting in corporate HR, learning about value-added work.
There was a file clerk next to me. I asked her, “You know all that stuff you file–are there other copies?” She said yes. I asked, “How often do you go into those files to retrieve something?” She said, “Hardly ever.”
We reassigned her to something more value-added the very next week.
Mark Graban:
Right. And that makes a big difference–because people can spend their whole lives doing things that don't need to be done.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Exactly. I think that's still one of the most powerful realizations. People want to add value, but they're stuck in systems that don't ask them to.
Mark Graban:
So at Sweetheart, what do you recall was the impetus for making such a big transformation?
Cheryl Jekiel:
They were making a lot of product that didn't need to be made. We had warehouses filled with unsold inventory. A consulting firm came in and did an assessment–they gave them a kind of report card–and basically said, “You're wasting a ton of money.”
There were also some really costly customer errors. I learned that when we made a mistake, it was a big one. For example, we did the containers for Ben & Jerry's. One time, a printing mistake meant we had a truckload of pistachio ice cream that couldn't go anywhere because the container was wrong.
Or with Wendy's straws–this was a long time ago–but there were mistakes that used to be seen as service problems, like the sales department would just apologize and move on. But when Lean came in, that turned into team-based root cause analysis. That shift was powerful.
Customers noticed. I think people underestimate the sales value of continuous improvement. It's not just about doing things more efficiently–it builds customer confidence.
Mark Graban:
Absolutely. There's sales benefit in consistent quality and on-time delivery, not just internal efficiency.
Cheryl Jekiel:
And it makes a difference when your workforce is truly engaged. Not just fixing mistakes after the fact, but proactively making things better. That's what creates trust and long-term relationships with customers.
Mark Graban:
Sounds like you had some strong influences early on. I wanted to ask–was that same consulting firm the one that helped implement Lean, or was there a different partner?
Cheryl Jekiel:
No, there was a separate group called Chicago Workforce. They don't exist anymore, but they were the ones who really helped change how the work got done–how roles changed, what it meant to supervise or coach, and how to build a team environment that could sustain it.
I've thought a lot about that. Many organizations could benefit from extra support not just with tools or events but with the foundational design of how people work and lead.
Mark Graban:
So tell us more about the Lean Leadership Center. What led you to start that work?
Cheryl Jekiel:
HR has always been close to my heart. I kept seeing people struggle with how HR could add value–or not add value. Sometimes people would say, “We don't need them for anything,” or they wouldn't trust them to contribute.
But I also knew that many HR professionals wanted to add more value. The problem was that there was a disconnect–like two ships passing in the night. HR wasn't being asked for the right things, and they weren't always prepared to step into that role. So I wanted to be one of the people helping close that gap.
To this day, I run communities of HR professionals–within Shingo, I'm starting one within AME. I always say the best people for HR professionals to talk to… are each other. Because they understand the unique challenges and can share real practices that work.
It got to a point where I thought, “If I don't devote my career to this, I don't know who will.” I felt called to be a spokesperson–or at least one of the voices–helping HR be seen and heard differently.
Mark Graban:
So did you start the Lean Leadership Center with that goal in mind?
Cheryl Jekiel:
Yes. I had written Lean Human Resources almost 10 years before I went out on my own. I launched the business in 2015, and it's been an odyssey ever since. I never would have guessed it would turn into what it has.
The new book, Let Go to Lead, represents five years of lessons learned. I spent time working with the State of Illinois early on. They were putting in supervisory training, but it wasn't good training–it was all PowerPoint decks and bullet points.
When I asked them what they wanted to accomplish, they said, “Well, people will know what they don't know.”
That response caught me off guard. So I started redesigning it. I focused on how to create an environment conducive to continuous improvement–basic leadership training, but rethought from the ground up.
If we want to create coaching leaders, how can we still be doing traditional supervisory training that doesn't match the goal? That's what Let Go to Lead came from–it's a reflection of everything I've learned since starting this work.
Mark Graban:
So you talked earlier about your first exposure to Lean and how it changed the way leaders operated. As you've done more work with organizations over the years, are those same habits and new ways of leading what form the foundation of Let Go to Lead? Or does the book build on what people might already recognize as Lean leadership behaviors?
Cheryl Jekiel:
Some of it will feel familiar, but a lot of what I've written about, I don't think people would necessarily guess. One of the key habits is simply: be clear.
Over and over again, I've seen how much confusion exists around communication. Leaders think they're being clear, but they're not. For example, someone might say, “I want my team to be more proactive.” Okay–but what would that actually look like? What behaviors would you expect to see?
And then there's this pause. Because people tend to speak conceptually, assuming their team knows what they mean. But they don't. You have to translate that vision into observable behavior. Like: “If someone can't get back to a customer that day, they should still send a note saying, ‘I haven't forgotten you.'” That's a concrete behavior tied to customer focus.
So I started realizing that clarity–of expectations, of goals, of behaviors–is a massive disconnect in most teams.
Mark Graban:
Yeah, a lot of Lean leadership talk can become cliché. “Be more customer focused.” Okay, but what does that look like on Tuesday morning?
Cheryl Jekiel:
Exactly. And leaders often haven't thought that through. We ask them, “What would that mean?” and they're like, “Well… return emails promptly, communicate delays, be responsive…” And then we say, “Great–did you say that to your team?”
And often, the answer is no. That's where clarity breaks down. Words like “proactive,” “responsible,” or “take ownership”–they mean different things to different people. You can't expect consistent behavior if you're not being clear about what you expect.
Mark Graban:
It seems like in environments where there's low psychological safety, people won't even feel comfortable asking for clarification. If a leader gives a vague directive, the team may not feel safe enough to ask, “What do you mean by that?”
Cheryl Jekiel:
That's a great point. One thing we teach constantly is: say it, write it, and confirm it–when it matters. Say the expectation out loud. Write it clearly. And then confirm by asking people what they understood.
Leaders often say, “Well, I told them in the last staff meeting!” But that's not enough. If you don't confirm understanding, you have no idea whether the message landed. People can go weeks or months misinterpreting a directive because no one paused to check in.
Mark Graban:
What are some of the other habits from the book that you've found are critical–or often overlooked?
Cheryl Jekiel:
One of the biggest ones is the need for community. Leadership is hard. It's uncomfortable. And leaders shouldn't have to develop these skills alone.
We've all heard the idea that people facing a shared challenge do better when they connect with others. So we build in structured ways for leaders to talk to each other–whether that's pairs, triads, or small groups.
When they're alone, they're stuck in their own head. But when they connect with others–even for just an hour–they realize they're not the only ones struggling. That realization creates momentum and confidence.
Mark Graban:
And those conversations require vulnerability, right? Which not every organization encourages.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Right. But here's the thing–I've seen this work even in organizations with tough cultures. We don't force public vulnerability. We keep the groups small. I find unused offices or conference rooms so they can talk in private. And we emphasize confidentiality.
And then, magic happens. When one person says, “I'm struggling with delegation,” the others say, “Me too.” And suddenly they don't feel isolated or broken. They realize that leadership is hard for everyone.
Mark Graban:
That's such a powerful point. And I think it ties into something I've heard you say–that many leaders get their sense of self-worth from feeling needed, from solving problems. So if they let go, they wonder, “What's my role now?”
Cheryl Jekiel:
Exactly. We've told leaders for years, “Remove barriers.” So that becomes their identity. And if we shift that to “develop others, empower others, let go,” they don't feel as needed. That can be unsettling.
So we have to reframe what “feeling good” looks like. Instead of “I fixed it,” now it's “My team solved it without me.” And that's a different–but deeply rewarding–kind of fulfillment.
Mark Graban:
Would you say leadership is about finding balance? We don't want leaders to solve everything, but we also don't want them to disappear. There are some systemic issues where leaders really should step in and remove barriers.
Cheryl Jekiel:
That's such an important point. The last year of my life has been focused on one general topic: the balance between hierarchical leadership and what I call non-role-based leadership.
We need both. I'm not saying eliminate hierarchy. But hierarchy tends to dominate. It's so pervasive that it overrides other forms of leadership potential.
I'm currently working on my doctorate, and my dissertation is about this very topic–understanding when hierarchy adds value, and when it gets in the way. I think it's one of the biggest areas we need to study and clarify as a leadership community.
Mark Graban:
I've heard people from Toyota talk about “enabling bureaucracy” versus “limiting bureaucracy.” The goal is to help people do their work, not get in their way.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Yes, and again, that comes back to clarity. I go into environments and ask, “What do you want to see when continuous improvement is working?” And people say things like, “We want empowered people.”
But what does that mean? Lean leadership, by definition, empowers others. But empower them to do what? How? What does that require?
We've spent so much time defining Lean leadership in contrast to traditional leadership–like, “It's not top-down!”–but not enough time building the practices and structures to actually support it.
Mark Graban:
And as you've said before, that's where our words can get fuzzy. We say things like “be proactive,” “take ownership,” “empower people”–but unless we define what those things look like in action, they don't translate to behavior.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Exactly. I think both of us probably spend a lot of time asking people, “What specifically do you mean by that?” Sometimes that question is very helpful… and sometimes it annoys people. [Laughs]
Mark Graban:
Yeah. [Laughs] I've definitely been told, “I was being clear!”
But seriously, I think part of psychological safety is being able to ask those clarifying questions without fear. And I've heard people say–leaders especially–that if someone disagrees with them, that's disrespectful. That's a mindset problem.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Exactly. And remember: disagreement doesn't mean a personality conflict. It might just mean, “I think there's a better way to do this.” But if a leader is used to their way ruling the day, then letting go of that is very uncomfortable.
So one of the things I teach is: by the time you're actually uncomfortable, you're probably right where you need to be.
Mark Graban:
That's such a powerful phrase. Can I quote you on that?
Cheryl Jekiel:
Yes, please do. [Laughs] It's true, though. The discomfort tells you you're in the zone of growth. If you're not uncomfortable, you're probably not changing much.
Mark Graban:
So how do you help leaders lean into that discomfort?
Cheryl Jekiel:
First, community. Having regular spaces where leaders talk to each other–small group discussions, buddy systems–helps normalize the struggle. Once they realize others feel the same way, it becomes less intimidating.
Second, I'm a big believer in practice. We treat leadership development like it's a one-time event. You go to a class, you check the box, and now you're “developed.”
But if you look at any sport, even the best athletes still practice. They do drills. They work on fundamentals. Leadership should be the same.
Mark Graban:
That reminds me of coaching certification programs–it's not just theory, it's a lot of reps. Roleplay, feedback, debrief. You're never “done” learning to coach.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Exactly. But most leadership programs don't include real practice. Maybe they roleplay once or twice. That's not enough.
And beyond that, we need to support the mental side of leadership development. Sports have coaches, but they also have sports psychologists. In the workplace, we're missing that piece.
Mark Graban:
So I want to shift to something you wrote about in Let Go to Lead–the influence of motivational interviewing. I've seen this used in healthcare, in coaching, and I think there's so much potential in leadership. Why is that important to you?
Cheryl Jekiel:
I came to motivational interviewing through the work of Ron Oslin, Larry Anderson, and Tony Chamberlain–some of the former Toyota folks. They encountered it in the addiction treatment world, and they said, “Hey, we found something in mental health that works in business.”
It really resonated with me. I actually worked as an addictions counselor when I was 25, so I already had some familiarity with it. One of the key ideas in that space is: people change when they're ready. You can't force readiness.
That's true in leadership and organizational change, too. You can talk at people all day, but it usually makes things worse, not better.
Mark Graban:
Yeah. Being “right” doesn't mean being helpful. And I think that's a good test for us as coaches and leaders–are we being helpful, or just telling?
Cheryl Jekiel:
Exactly. One thing Ron told me that really stuck is: even if you're just talking to someone about the football game, that's not wasted time. You're building rapport. And rapport is the foundation for everything else.
Compare that to walking into a facility saying, “We're here with corporate, and here's what we're going to change.” People aren't ready for that. They don't know you. They didn't ask for this.
You have to meet people where they are. If someone is in what motivational interviewing calls “precontemplation”–they haven't even thought about changing yet–you can't push them into action. You need to understand their stage of change and work from there.
Mark Graban:
That reminds me of structured problem-solving approaches. People jump into solutions before they've even agreed on the problem–or whether change is necessary. Motivational interviewing slows that down.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Yes. And it helps teams stop blaming “resistance” for everything. We often talk about people being “resistors” like they're the problem. But most of the time, they're just being human.
They're not ready, or they're confused, or they're afraid. That's not resistance–it's part of the change process.
Mark Graban:
And we forget how long it took us to get here. We expect people to make a shift in 30 minutes that might have taken us three years.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Exactly. I always say: change happens one person at a time. So when people launch a new program or Lean initiative and say, “We're going to transform this 1,000-person organization,” I remind them–those are 1,000 individuals, each with their own readiness, fears, and motivations.
You can't lead change at the group level. You have to influence people one conversation at a time.
Mark Graban:
That reminds me of one of the early lessons I learned in a GM plant nearly 30 years ago. I was eager and impatient, wanting to launch Lean initiatives right away. But the new plant manager–Larry, a NUMMI-trained guy–he spent his first couple months walking the floor, building relationships.
I asked him, “When are we going to get started?” And he said, “I know what needs to be done. But the team doesn't yet know that I know.” He was laying the foundation. It was the classic “go slow to go fast,” even if he didn't use that phrase.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Yes! And people need time to process. You've got leaders who have been thinking about this for months or years, and then they show up expecting frontline teams to be ready right now. It just doesn't work like that.
And often, we in leadership or consulting roles are so immersed in improvement–we live and breathe this stuff–that we forget how foreign it might be to others.
Mark Graban:
And even within a team, people are at different stages. You can't say, “Our team is in contemplation.” Some are in action, some are still in denial. So part of the job is to meet each person where they are.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Right. I think leaders underestimate how much time it takes just to get everyone aligned on the problem–let alone on what to do about it.
Mark Graban:
So Cheryl, I want to come back to the title of your book–Let Go to Lead: Six Habits for Happier, More Independent Teams (with Less Stress and More Time for Yourself). Someone might hear that subtitle and think, “What does less stress and more time have to do with leadership?” So tell us–what's the connection?
Cheryl Jekiel:
It goes back to when I was first testing and applying this approach. We were working with a group of leaders, helping them build more independent teams. And one day, a woman I really respected–she worked downstate in southern Illinois–walked into the room and said, “I'm starting to leave work earlier, and I'm making it to my kid's baseball games.”
And that moment really hit me.
Yes, we talk about the hard things–about letting go, building capability, creating clarity. But we don't talk enough about the upside. When leaders stop carrying all the problems themselves, they reduce their own stress. They create time. And then they get to choose what to do with that time–maybe it's family, maybe it's higher-level work, maybe it's just rest.
It's a benefit we don't talk about enough.
Mark Graban:
That's such a powerful shift. And I've seen leaders experience that firsthand. They let go of needing to solve everything, and suddenly they're getting more done while putting in less effort. And they're still leading–it's just a different kind of leadership.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Exactly. But there's a mindset challenge. Some leaders feel less worthy when they're not solving all the problems themselves. They think, “If I'm not the one fixing it, maybe I'm not doing enough.”
Mark Graban:
And I've said to people–your team's results are still your results. If they improve something, you'll still get credit. That's called leadership.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Yes! Saying, “My team is going to present their solution,” rather than “I'm here to present it”–that reflects well on a leader. But a lot of people still wrestle with that.
Mark Graban:
And so much of that comes back to identity. How do we redefine what a good leader looks like? Not the firefighter or the hero, but the developer of others.
Cheryl Jekiel:
Yes, and that's where I think we need to change the emotional reward system. Helping someone else grow and succeed should feel as good–if not better–than solving it yourself.
Mark Graban:
I couldn't agree more. So, Cheryl, thank you again for being here. There's so much more we could talk about. I hope this is the first of multiple conversations.
For listeners: the book is Let Go to Lead: Six Habits for Happier, More Independent Teams (with Less Stress and More Time for Yourself). Cheryl's organization is the Lean Leadership Center, and I'll include links to her website, book, and LinkedIn in the show notes.
Is there anything else you'd like to share before we wrap up?
Cheryl Jekiel:
Just that this work is deeply personal to me. I believe in it because I've seen it work. And I think leadership can be joyful–not just effective. It doesn't have to be stress-filled all the time.
So thank you, Mark. I don't know why it took us so long to do this, but I'm glad we finally did.
Mark Graban:
Me too. Thanks again, Cheryl.
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