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In 2022, Shaunté founded Empact Global, a consultancy that works with organizations to help them solve really BIG problems. Her more than 20 years spent implementing Six Sigma, LEAN, and design thinking concepts have inspired her to take on “wicked problems” in a “VUCA” (Volatile, Uncertain, Complex, and Ambiguous) world.
Originally trained by Shingijustu (pioneers of the Toyota Production System) she has educated over 2800 people in continuous improvement and innovation, led hundreds of workshops, and coached more than 60 leaders.
Shaunte holds a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering, and a Masters of Engineering, Design, and Manufacturing, both from Old Dominion University in Norfolk, VA.
In today's episode, we discuss what Shaunté learned about Lean in her first aerospace jobs, including time spent working with the famed Shingijutsu consulting group. What did Shaunté learn and discover when she was recruited into her first healthcare organization? We discuss problem-solving in the context of shopfloor improvement, management practices, and big societal problems like inequities and a lack of diversity in some Lean settings.
Questions, Notes, and Highlights:
- How does Lean help us navigate a VUCA world?
- What we know vs. what we THINK we know?
- Facts vs. data?
- How do assumptions get leaders in trouble?
- Leaders observing leaders? Doing so in a non-blaming way?
- Helping people go from “we don't have time” to making time?
- What's your Lean origin story?
- “Everything was an experiment” – seeds planted by her father, a math & science teacher
- Northrup Grumman – “Lean Engineering”
- Boeing – “real training” from Shingijutsu
- From Aerospace to healthcare? What's different?
- “I don't think challenge is supported enough in HC”
- Ideas on how Lean practices need to evolve?
- Shifting to working independently / your own firm?
- Fighting the way we've always done it, including in hiring and selecting speakers for events
- Diversity and representation on conference stages, Lean in general
- How does it feel to go to a conference and not see a Black woman on the stage?
- Celebrating Juneteenth
The podcast is sponsored by Stiles Associates, now in its 30th year of business. They are the go-to Lean recruiting firm serving the manufacturing, private equity, and healthcare industries. Learn more.
This podcast is part of the #LeanCommunicators network.
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Automated Transcript (Not Guaranteed to be Defect Free)
Welcome to the Lean Blog podcast. Visit our website, www.leanblog. Org. Now, here's your host, Mark Graban.
Mark Graban (12s):
Hey, it's Mark Graban Here Welcome to episode 4 8 of the podcast. It is June 19th, 2023. Want to wish everybody a happy Juneteenth holiday today. My guest today is Shaunté Kinch. You'll learn more about her in a minute, but she is the founder of Empact Global Consulting Firm, and you can get a link to Shaunté's LinkedIn profile, her website, and More by looking in the show notes. Or you can go to leanblog.Org/478. Well, hi everybody. Welcome back to Lean Blog interviews. My guest today is Shaunté Kinch. In 2022, Shaunté founded Empact Global, a consultancy that works with organizations to help them solve really big problems.
Mark Graban (58s):
She has more than 20 years spent implementing Six Sigma lean and design thinking concepts, and that's inspired her to take on so-called wicked problems in what's often called, there's an acronym alert here of VUCA World. And I'll ask Shaunté in a minute to tell us what VUCA means for those who don't know. But she was originally trained by Shingujiitsu pioneers from Toyota Production System Roots. She's educated over 2,800 people in continuous improvement and innovation practices. She's led hundreds of workshops and coached more than 60 leaders. Shaunté holds a bachelor of Science in mechanical engineering, a master's of engineering design manufacturing, both from Old Dominion University and Norfolk, Virginia.
Mark Graban (1m 41s):
So I've known Shaunté for a while. Like what, over 10 years? I see a nodding longer
Shaunté Kinch (1m 47s):
Than that. 15.
Mark Graban (1m 49s):
Shaunté Kinch (1m 50s):
Yeah, at least 15 long time.
Mark Graban (1m 53s):
I, I interrupted where I, I'm supposed to say, first off, welcome to the podcast.
Shaunté Kinch (1m 57s):
Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
Mark Graban (1m 60s):
Thank you for being here. And yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's some podcast guests where I'm, I'm sort of meeting them for the first time and that's definitely not the case here with, with you Shaunté, we, we, we crossed paths through Lean healthcare circles.
Shaunté Kinch (2m 13s):
Mark Graban (2m 14s):
We'll maybe get to that when we hear some of your career arc and origin story. So I know we have a, a lot to talk about here today. So first off the acronym, it's one I've heard and, but may maybe not everybody listening knows. Tell us real quick, You know what, what VUCA stands for.
Shaunté Kinch (2m 33s):
VUCA stands for volatility, uncertainty, uncertainty, complexity and Ambiguity. In today's world, I think it's even more relevant. Things are moving, especially technology is moving so fast that, and technology is moving so fast that it impacts what we know or what we think we know to be true or the way we think things should happen. And I think there's been, from a people standpoint, there's so much polarization and economic uncertainty and just about every sphere things just aren't clear.
Shaunté Kinch (3m 18s):
You know there's, and, and things shift fast. And so how can we be prepared for whatever is coming and how can we have some even foresight and insights into thinking about what could be and preparing for that.
Mark Graban (3m 36s):
Yeah. And then, and to me, Lean is about increased Agility and adaptability. Like I think sometimes people think or hear about Lean in terms of process. It's standardized work, and they think that that's rigid. And I, well, no, it's actually, it's actually quite the opposite. When we're better with problem solving and improvement and that leads to innovation. I think we're in the same camp there, but what, what else would you add around You know how Lean in general helps us better, better cope with or suc or even thrive in, in this VUCA world?
Shaunté Kinch (4m 12s):
Yeah. I think one of the things You know, one of the basic principles of Lena is, is observation. And I think there is a benefit to not only You know, we often think about Lean in terms of process, but when we think about it bigger in terms of the world, there's an opportunity to observe not only what's happening present, but to learn from the past. And so I think we can observe and, and have some intentionality around what has happened, why has it happened, what can we see coming? So what do we need to do different? Yeah.
Mark Graban (4m 50s):
Yeah. And I think we'll have a chance to explore a little bit of, of some of your own learning and history. Like You know, I've never worked directly with Shingijutsu. I've heard stories and I don't know sometimes like what's, what's real and what's urban legend. But yeah. But I think You know, there, there are some similarities in our, our backgrounds in terms of being coached by Toyota or former Toyota people, which Shingijutsu is, is part of that former Toyota club. But you use this phrase, and I think this is one of the things that got drilled into me, this difference between what we know and what we think we know, like the difference between fact and assumption.
Shaunté Kinch (5m 29s):
Mark Graban (5m 30s):
Tell, tell us a little bit more about that. Or even an example or if you have a story of, of, of where people might get tripped up when they confuse the difference between those things.
Shaunté Kinch (5m 41s):
Yeah. One of the things that's plaguing society right now is bias. And there's so many different types of bias and You know, know, going back to the principle of observation when it comes to lien, is identifying the facts. And that's one reason you observe is So. you can see what's actually happening, what not. What has somebody told you? Not what do you assume, not what do you feel, but what's real, real, based on your eyes, real based on data.
Shaunté Kinch (6m 22s):
And even data needs to be validated. Cause oftentimes that's not real
Mark Graban (6m 28s):
Or it's been massaged or filtered or whatever.
Shaunté Kinch (6m 31s):
Absolutely. You can, we can say whatever you want it to say. And so when it comes to data, it's important that we go to the source, see how it's collected, how it's being used to know that it's real. I'm trying to think of an example of when there have been, we think versus, we know there have been, I've ran hundreds of Kaizen workshops and there have been some where afterwards, You know we didn't meet the target. There was a target set, target was not met, but the learning was the win.
Shaunté Kinch (7m 15s):
And what I mean by that is the leaders assumed the problem. And through observation, understanding, pulling the layers of that onion back, now we understand what the real problem is. And we didn't meet the target because we were going after the wrong problem. So that's an example of what we think versus what we know. And it's impor it's important to value the learning as much as meeting a measurable target. Because what I find often is that what is being requested by leadership to fix, once you really get in there, it's a different problem.
Shaunté Kinch (8m 3s):
It's a different problem to be solved. And so that's where bias comes in. That's where fact comes in. And there needs to be space and grace to understand first and not jump onto, oh, well we didn't meet our target. What did we learn though? Right? And the value of that so that now we can, we know what we need to do to meet the target. Yeah. So there's, there's a huge win there.
Mark Graban (8m 33s):
And, and it seems like assumptions are the root of many mistakes like this. This comes up a lot through the context of You know, the My favorite mistake podcast of, of not validating assumptions and, and, and moving forward in, in, in too much of a linear way. Instead of thinking of You know plan, do study, adjust P D C A or P D S A cycles, like yeah, I've, I've seen leaders, they, as you touched on, they make an assumption of what they think the problem statement is. So they might be framing the problem statement in a way that's blaming the employees. I'm like, okay, wait a minute, time out. Maybe that's not really it. Or we jump to an assumption of what we think the root cause is, or we jump to an assumption of what a good countermeasure would be.
Shaunté Kinch (9m 18s):
Mark Graban (9m 18s):
Right. We assume it's gonna work instead of really like, when, when, when, when, when. It's not those P D S A cycles just we, we get in trouble.
Shaunté Kinch (9m 26s):
What I've, what I've seen often is that sometimes the process isn't the problem. The process is okay, people aren't following it and there's a reason they aren't following it. And it often often has to do with leadership and how things are being led and managed. And it's hard for leaders to hear that when they bring you in as a consultant or to help them and they think there's a process issue and it's like, actually your process would work fine, but there's another issue here. There's some cultural things going on here.
Shaunté Kinch (10m 7s):
It's not a safe space here. So let's, let's run the process as is and fix the, fix everything surrounding it. And that gets to kind of how I'm, I'm looking at things now, not as processed so much, but improving systems, what's going on in the system.
Mark Graban (10m 26s):
Yeah. That, that's exactly the word that was coming to mind for me. The, the, the systems that surround the process, and we'll come back and talk more about healthcare, I'm sure, but You know when you, when you have a situation where, let's say, I mean I've seen this happen where You know you, you have process, you have tasks that, that nurses are supposed to do. And if they were to do everything, it adds up easily to be 80 minutes worth of work every hour. Like so there's a systemic problem. Yes. And if people don't feel safe to ask for help, to pull a proverbial and on court and say, Hey, I'm overloaded.
Mark Graban (11m 5s):
There's too much to do each hour. If leaders are dismissive of that, there's an assumption of, oh, it's not really that bad. I'm like, oh, okay. Get outta here with that.
Shaunté Kinch (11m 16s):
Mark Graban (11m 17s):
That, that it, that, that just leads to all kinds of problems.
Shaunté Kinch (11m 21s):
Mark Graban (11m 23s):
So you, if you can get leaders to, does that help then, do you think to have leaders go to bring, come back to the observe word, come back and observe, look, they're not being chicken little here. The sky's actually fallen. Like this is, this is a real, real pro. The the problem is a real problem.
Shaunté Kinch (11m 42s):
Absolutely. But one thing that's, that I don't think happens often enough is leaders observing. Leaders, leaders are always observe, often observing, or we get them to observe the process and they observe the people that report to them. But what's, what's your role in this? And You know, one of, one of the things I did when I was working at Stanford Hospital was I improved, I was working on improving the effectiveness of the managers. And so we observed every manager had them observe, each others did time studies of what are you doing all day?
Shaunté Kinch (12m 23s):
What is valuable? What's value added in your management processes, looking at the variation across everyone and then coming up with some leadership standards and creating a management playbook, that's a different view that's often not looked at and often not taken, taken. And it gets back to, we always often assume that the line is where the problem is.
Mark Graban (12m 55s):
And that's, so then how, I mean that, that's gotta be maybe a difficult conversation to try to help leaders see. The way you're seeing it from the observation, like of the problem is us sometimes in the mirror,
Shaunté Kinch (13m 12s):
But that's the value of observation is that they'll start to see it for themselves. The hard part is getting them to create time and space and willingness to observe and willingness to be observed. But once they do, it's like light bulbs on eyes open. Oh, I get it now. And the same when is in it for them. That's in it for the frontline. You have more time, you have more space. Let's go home on time. Let's not work at nine o'clock at night. Let's You know, feel like we're up to date with all of our tasks and that we're not behind because you have You know 50 performance crews due do at the end of the week.
Shaunté Kinch (13m 52s):
So there's a win in there. And I think there's a win in all of this. And the key is identifying it and making sure people understand what the win is.
Mark Graban (13m 60s):
Yeah. I mean there, there can be, yeah. Different overburden
Shaunté Kinch (14m 5s):
Mark Graban (14m 6s):
Unrealistic expectations on leaders. But like when I think back to opportunities to observe frontline healthcare professionals, like one, one thing that's there, there's, there's, there's some method and there's some mindset. So I think in terms of method, like when you're in an area like a laboratory, and you don't have to worry, as You know, you don't have that direct patient contact and you're, you're kind of behind the scenes, like having staff observe each other and even use video recordings was often powerful because then people could watch themselves work
Shaunté Kinch (14m 41s):
Mark Graban (14m 42s):
And start seeing things that they weren't aware of when they're doing it. But then there's that mindset of not blaming, like we're not blaming you for quote unquote being wasteful. Right. We're observing you, whether it's frontline staff or as you're touching on here, I think it's a great point. Leaders, we can observe and identify causes of waste in ways that aren't blaming, right?
Shaunté Kinch (15m 4s):
Yes, absolutely. And I think there's a very, there's a, there's a line there because what I was saying could absolutely come across as blaming leaders, but what's happening is leaders are, are follow, are doing process every day. It's just often not identified or thought about as process. It's often not documented as processed, and it's usually not standardized. It's not repeatable. So they're do, like, as an individual, they have something and they have a way, a method that they perform repeatedly, but it's often not shared across their peers. And so when you can take a group of leaders that have similar responsibility and say, Hey, how do you manage your day?
Shaunté Kinch (15m 46s):
How do you manage your week? How do you manage your time? Now you can repeat, create, repeat processes. It's absolutely is not about blaming the individual, but helping support them and give them the tools to be able to be more effective and do their job efficiently. Yeah.
Mark Graban (16m 1s):
And, and I think there's a similar conversation to be had, I think especially with leaders. If people say, I don't have time to do such and such, like, is that end of conversation then, oh, you're right. Let's not do that then. Or how do we make time?
Shaunté Kinch (16m 19s):
How do we make time? Yes. That is the key question for just about everything. It's like, but how could we, how can we, right, right. You know whenever there's a, a negative statement or can't, it's like, okay, there's an opportunity there. How do we find the, how do we find it? Yeah. How do we create it? Yeah. So
Mark Graban (16m 44s):
You know, I touched on, on on some of this earlier. I mean, you, you've had a lot of great teachers. You've done a lot of great work in different settings in different industries. I would You know, it would be great to hear Shaunté, your Lean origin story in terms of just context and timing and and what improvement methods.
Shaunté Kinch (17m 5s):
Mark Graban (17m 6s):
Were were, were were being taught to you.
Shaunté Kinch (17m 9s):
I, I was reflecting and yesterday was Father's Day. I had the opportunity to spend the day with my dad, and he was my first teacher. So not to make the origin story too long, but it literally started from birth.
Mark Graban (17m 29s):
Yeah. So we have time. Go ahead. Tell us.
Shaunté Kinch (17m 32s):
My father was a sixth grade math and science teacher. He actually was my teacher. I sat in his class and raised my hand, Mr. Ote. But he allowed me to be curious. He allowed and fostered that. He didn't shut me down when I said, why, why, why? And I asked why about everything. And now with the three and four year old myself, I get how deliberate he had to be, not to shut me down. Yeah. And so he, he challenged me early. He fostered my critical thinking.
Shaunté Kinch (18m 13s):
The scientific method was understood and utilized at a young age, and I loved it. You know, I looked forward to science fairs. We were regularly dissecting out pellets, earthworms, and frogs in the house, You know or looking at the stars. But everything wasn't experiment from a young age. So the seeds were planted early. My first formal knowledge of Lean came in the late nineties, early two thousands. I was got a master's of mechanical engineering and design and manufacturing.
Shaunté Kinch (18m 55s):
One of the courses, which was my favorite course was called Concurrent Engineering. And that class, I was exposed to improvement methods. So that was the first time I heard about it. Did still didn't really get it, but it peak my curiosity. I also took design of experiments, which was my other favorite class. So together those two kind of also laid a nice foundation for what was to come. My first job outside of my first job after graduating college was at Northrop Grumman. I was designing aircraft carriers and there was an expectation to be Lean engineering.
Shaunté Kinch (19m 38s):
So that was like, oh, there's that word again. What does that mean in this context? How do I engineer in a Lean way? And so they put me into my first formal training, which was their University of continuous improvement, where I was certified in lean and Six Sigma. Following that job. I was, I got a, joined Boeing, I started to work at Boeing, where I traveled around to Boeing sites all over the country as a Lean consultant. This is where I consider my formal, formal real Lean training as I was trained by Shingle Jitsu under the guidance of Sensei Naga Matsu.
Shaunté Kinch (20m 24s):
And learned additional methods like three P. And really how do you innovate with Lean? How do you iterate and prototype quickly? And that intersects of process and small quick iterations with large radical change and step changes. What fascinated me, and I loved the distinction be and switching, the mental switching between linear thinking and lateral thinking. Linear, linear being more of the process, dot dot, dot.
Shaunté Kinch (21m 7s):
This happens and this happens and this happens. And lateral being the activities and exercises to get to open your mind to think differently and to be able to innovate. So that was great. And following Boeing, I was recruited to go into healthcare in the, when was it the, around 2010. Healthcare was really having an interest in Lean. There weren't a lot of people inside that understood. It's, there was a huge recruitment of industry people coming into healthcare. And I was recruited to work at U C L A health system under then C O o Amir Rubin, who's now the c e O of one medical Amazon.
Shaunté Kinch (21m 52s):
And that's where I met you. And I was working with you a little bit with the Lane Transformation conferences and summits and the gemba visits, helping the member visits at all the different sites across the country. So that was my first learning of lean and healthcare, which really opened my eyes to huge shift in expectations between outside industry and what does it mean to work in healthcare, which was drastically different and a huge learning curve. And I think part of the difference that I saw was the emphasis on relationship.
Shaunté Kinch (22m 39s):
Relationship was more critical in healthcare, from my view, where outside industry, it was all about outcomes. And, and I think that was even shown and how Amere addressed, how he rolled out Lean at U C L A. He didn't start with Lean, but he knew where he was going. He started with service excellence and rolled out a, a standard called CI Care, which is now in a lot of hospitals across the country. But it was first just connect with your patient, connects with the customers, can you look pleasant and connect with them?
Shaunté Kinch (23m 21s):
Yeah. And it's like, if you can't have a service standard and everybody connect with the person in front of you, how can I expect you to follow a process standard? Right. So I thought it was really smart strategically to not take too big of a leap into this world that had traditionally been known as a manufacturing thing. And it, it was a great change management strategy there.
Mark Graban (23m 50s):
So yeah. So I'd love to come back and, and sort of dig into some of some of that. But You know, I'm curious to go back to some of those different steps of learning and, and in d in different contexts, like a couple things stood out or resonated. Like You know for one, I You know, I think of like You know, learning about Lean in a formal academic context can maybe at best peak curiosity. Yeah. It's just limited time, limited opportunity. You know to think of, like You know for me it was like 1994 in an Industrial engineering class. Mark Spearman at Northwestern You know was talking about elements of lean and the Toyota production system that was really just material flow and production scheduling.
Mark Graban (24m 38s):
Right. It was all good stuff, but it was this pretty limited view. And that again, like I'm not faulting him for that. Right, right. There's only so much you can learn, but it piqued my curiosity or at least established, hey, there was this difference. And then you get out into the working world, You know that that's where the real learning takes place. Right. So hopefully people aren't turned off to it in an academic setting.
Shaunté Kinch (25m 1s):
Yeah. I think, I think like most things in academics is theory and it, it allows you to say, Ooh, I wanna learn more, or, that is not interesting to me. And in my case it was, Ooh, I really wanna learn more about that. So I was glad that the roles I had helped support that learning and application and, and practice.
Mark Graban (25m 23s):
Yeah. And then I was gonna ask a follow up question from your time at Northrop Grumman talking about the application of Lean to engineering. Was it Yeah. Classic focus of trying to improve the flow, reduce the cycle time, improve the quality of engineering work. I see a nodding, tell us more about
Shaunté Kinch (25m 42s):
That. It was, it was, I was specifically wor designing steam piping systems for a new class of aircraft carriers. And it was a, it, it was two main realms. One was the time to get the work product completed, the designs completed and how we worked together. You know there was a concurrent effort to work as a multidisciplinary team. It was called I p T teams at the time and disciplinary planning team. And so I led a team of construction people with engineers, with designers, all we met together.
Shaunté Kinch (26m 22s):
And that was part of applying Lean or Agile method to not have this siloed thinking, throw it across the fence, oh, now they're gonna throw it back cuz you didn't do something. Right. Right, right. But we, we partner in the thinking and the engineering and design together. So that was one thing. Another aspect was designing the product lane. Some of the goals were reducing the weight, reducing the meeting, the schedule. There was some quality requirements. So how do we build that in? How do we build quality in to the design itself? So it was, it was very neat to look at it from that standpoint versus truly You know production as it had been traditionally used.
Shaunté Kinch (27m 11s):
Mark Graban (27m 12s):
And then at Boeing, in that time with jitsu, you kind of touch on continuous improvement innovation. Did you participate in kind of a classic Kaizen events and three P events? Both.
Shaunté Kinch (27m 26s):
Yes. Yes. At
Mark Graban (27m 27s):
Point. Tell us about the difference between those.
Shaunté Kinch (27m 30s):
Yeah, so I, I actually have been thinking about this a lot lately and the challenges and healthcare. So I was reflecting back on how did I learn this originally? You know, I think reflection is important and sometimes I feel like we don't always apply the right tool to the problem. And a lot of the issues that I see in healthcare, I'm a, I'm sorry, I'm going back in a circle all the way to get back to Boeing. But the issues I see in healthcare are bigger than what Boeing would've bitten off for Kaizen event.
Shaunté Kinch (28m 16s):
The things that Boeing, that were kaizen workshops were very, very, very specific and tightly, tightly scoped. You know, I remember one time there was some measure that was just off. And then through the workshop we uncovered what it was and it just needed a shem in something. And so it was, it was that tight, it was that controlled where the processes in healthcare are, like, if I were to relate them, it's like, you need a hundred, a hundred, things are loose and you need, you need Shems in a thousand places.
Shaunté Kinch (29m 1s):
It's like, are we looking at this? Right. You know, is this the right method for the problem or are we biting off too big of a problem at once?
Mark Graban (29m 11s):
Yeah. Are we framing the problem correctly? Comes back to that again. Right,
Shaunté Kinch (29m 14s):
Right. Is the problem being framed correctly? And I think You know, it goes back to what's the original ask You know the, the organization's leader, what are they asking help for? And then providing feedback of, well, let's learn first. Let's understand first maybe we should, let's observe first before committing to X problem be so we know that we're working on the right thing. But yeah, at Boeing, I absolutely, I learned kaizen workshops first, and I had to get kind of certified in that framework first. Once I did that for an amount of time, then it's like, okay, now you have the prerequisites to learn this next level of Lean thinking, which is how to design in a Lean way via the three P process.
Shaunté Kinch (30m 10s):
Mark Graban (30m 12s):
And You know, coming into, I think you alluded to this, or correct me if I'm wrong, like coming into healthcare as an outsider, you talked about expectations. Either what I heard or what I jumped to from my experience is like how eye-opening it is in good ways and troubling ways to see Yeah. Behind the curtain, if you will, how things work in healthcare. Am I Yes,
Shaunté Kinch (30m 41s):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think behind the curtain has a few eye-opening things happening back there. One is you see the quality issues that are really happening and the safety challenges. And you're like, well, everyone in the world is a patient. I'm a patient, my family's a patient. I'm not comfortable, but I'm seeing the reality is behind the curtain. So I think that that's one thing. But from a, from a process or culture standpoint, there absolutely was a difference in, I would say, what was valued.
Shaunté Kinch (31m 31s):
Where I saw promotions happening in industry, it was, oh, you met these targets, your performance was You know X, y, z, you should be promoted to the next level. Yeah.
Mark Graban (31m 46s):
Outcomes again. Yeah,
Shaunté Kinch (31m 48s):
Outcomes. Absolutely. And healthcare, it was you, I don't wanna, I don't want to blank make a blanket statement because nothing is absolute, but it was very, it was so relationship focused. And so you don't push buttons, you don't cause waves. You, you You know you help the leader achieve, but it's not necessarily your achievement. And I think sometimes the negative of that is we're not leveraging and really supporting the 2001 Toyota House principle of challenge.
Shaunté Kinch (32m 44s):
I don't think challenge is as supported in healthcare often. And I think that is an opportunity. And I think once it's, once it is supported and embraced, I think we'll see a huge difference in uptake. Yeah. I think, I think oftentimes from a culture standpoint, what I've seen in healthcare is similar thinking. People with a similar mind are rewarded where the best innovation comes from diversity of thought.
Shaunté Kinch (33m 32s):
And you need challenge and you need diversity of thought to create challenge.
Mark Graban (33m 38s):
Right? Yeah. And, and, and challenge is one of those words, so emphasized by the Toyota people leading with humility. Yes. A big part of kaizen or continuous improvement is challenge. I think that's where sometimes people misunderstand respect for people isn't mean being soft on people or being nice. Right. It means to challenge like the difference between like as, as Karen Ross has helped me understand the difference between nice and kind. Yes. Like if we can move beyond punitive.
Shaunté Kinch (34m 10s):
Mark Graban (34m 11s):
I've been in healthcare settings where something bad happens, there's clearly a process improvement in learning opportunity. And then I You know I'm observing and trying to coach leaders of like feeling bad and telling somebody, this isn't your fault. Don't feel bad. That cannot be the end of conversation. Like, that's nice. We don't wanna make someone feel bad. I think the the ultimate kindness is challenging then in a non blaming, non punitive way. Yes. How do we really understand what happened here and how do we make changes to our processes and our systems to make sure it does not happen again?
Shaunté Kinch (34m 52s):
Mark Graban (34m 52s):
And there's a lot of nice in healthcare if it's not punitive, it's nice. And I'm generalizing now, but that's a
Shaunté Kinch (34m 58s):
I I agree. And that, that's exactly the problem that I'm, I'm, I've been seeing. And when you, when you go to a, a system that's not known to be nice or, or doesn't have that nice culture, then it feels off-putting and it's like, oh. So there, there's a, I don't know, there's an interesting, there's an interesting sweet spot that needs to be found where there's respect, psychological safety challenge is welcomed and expected. Not just welcomed but expected. Right?
Mark Graban (35m 37s):
Yeah. Right. Not just tolerated, but really Exactly. Really welcomed. Exactly.
Shaunté Kinch (35m 42s):
Yeah. Right. Invited. Yeah, exactly. Like, why did I go to this meeting and no one, no one had a different idea. That should not happen. There should be, there should be different ideas. It should be embraced. It should be. It should be expected. Yeah. So I, I've been, I've been, I've been as a Lean practitioner and having done it for 20 years, I will always be a Lean practitioner. And I also have You know some background in systems thinking design principles.
Shaunté Kinch (36m 23s):
And so I'm, I'm starting to look at the intersection of those things and how they support each other because I think, again, what problem are we trying to solve? And sometimes once you uncover the onion, you're like, oh, well these tools over here aren't necessarily the best for that. This is a bigger issue. This is a more challenging issue. This is a more complex issue. And so being able to support the, the expectations, the methods, the really, the principles support the principles of Lean through additional methods.
Mark Graban (37m 7s):
Shaunté Kinch (37m 8s):
Mark Graban (37m 9s):
And, and so You know, I was gonna ask you, in thinking of your learning and your experience, practice improvement, You know evolution here. I mean, one thing we're fighting against is the way we've always done it ism There are times I think some of that creeps into Lean practice the way we've always done it, the way I was taught. Yeah. Doing it by the book versus You know. I think You know you, you've got a set of ex things you've been educated on. I've got sort of a, there's, there's a, a high overlap in the Venn diagram, but like, yes, I've been introduced to things where you start thinking, well, maybe we can evolve Lean practice.
Mark Graban (37m 53s):
What, what are some of your thoughts around You know opportunities or, or need to kind of integrate or synthesize ideas from, from other disciplines that you've learned and worked with? Like being going by the book versus rewriting the book, the new edition of the book? Yes.
Shaunté Kinch (38m 9s):
I think for Lean to continue to be viable, it will have to adapt. It goes back to the beginning of this conversation and where the world is going and how uncertain things are and how fast things move and transition. But technology is moving at an incredible rate and it is creating automation. It is helping reduce the burden on people. It is helping people be more efficient.
Shaunté Kinch (38m 51s):
And Lean practitioners will need to be open to advances in technology and how it can be leveraged to help. And I think You know a lot of times we, like you said, we all have been trained in certain ways and we have our own beliefs and biases around what's the best way to do something. And oh, you have to do it this way or you can't shortcut something because You know then you're not being authentic. But I think we always need to consider what's the intention, what is the intention?
Shaunté Kinch (39m 39s):
You know Mike Rona reminded me of a couple months ago when I was getting some advice from him about going in a little different direction. He said, You know Toyota started as a loom company and ended up as a car manufacturer. So, you don't, don't feel like you're not being true to something because evolution is necessary. And so I believe that You know, even if I take something simple like time observations, basic method, lots of value in doing it.
Shaunté Kinch (40m 24s):
But is the value in filling out on a sheet of paper every task and time going back to sit and manually do the math? Or is the value in observing what's happening for yourself and being able to understand what the data is saying? Cause there's technology that can capture what's actually happening. Or we can leverage things to do the math for us versus doing it for ourselves. That takes a lot of time. And the time that we take sitting there doing those manual processes, we could actually be synthesizing where, what's the opportunity here?
Shaunté Kinch (41m 5s):
You know. Instead of some, a leader needing to know how to create a process control chart or how to create a Pareto diagram, let's let them look at it and actually understand what is it telling me? You know. I think there, there's value in the understanding and the synthesis and the ideas that come forth from the information. You know, R F I D is old technology now, but that could be used for spaghetti diagrams, an automating motion. How many places are are doing that versus, and, and that then have learners spend time evaluating what are they seeing, what's actually happening?
Shaunté Kinch (41m 50s):
Where's the opportunity? I think we, we spend so much time doing the manual stuff that we're not putting enough emphasis on the thinking and the thinking is where the learning comes in. So I think there's a huge opportunity with all the advances and, and quick development with AI happening. And I, virtual reality, augmented reality. There are so many things we can simulate now and in the future versus You know the ways that we have done things. The idea of a moon, a moon moonshine kit and moonshining things to fa rapidly prototype is gonna look super different in the future.
Shaunté Kinch (42m 34s):
It's gonna be digital and the ability to test in a safe space where you can't harm anything. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. So You know, I think we need to observe our own Lean processes, identify what's the waste and how we've been doing it for the past forever, and what can we do differently going forward? Leveraging technology and that automation, automation You know te automating things with the human test that is part of Lean.
Shaunté Kinch (43m 17s):
So why are we not looking at that ourselves? We look at the processes of developing services and, and manufacturing things, but are we looking at our own process as Lean practitioners and saying, how could we do this differently? How do we give back time? How do we reduce the burden of telling leaders that they have to manually update a visibility wall every day? You know there's, there's value. I'm not saying there's not value in pieces of that, but the question we should challenge ourselves to what is the value? How do we keep the value and leverage technology to reduce the burden?
Mark Graban (43m 57s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think there's a real trap when, when the point becomes doing the thing. Yes. Whether that's flipping the cards on the
Shaunté Kinch (44m 8s):
Mark Graban (44m 9s):
Buy board or You know doing quote unquote doing the A three. Like I hear reports from people, like they're challenged in their organization. People emphasize, well, how many a threes we did, but how good were any of the a threes? Are we checking the box or are we really using the, the, the tool with the right mindsets and for the right purpose? Like we can get off track if, I mean, I would say, look, You know the point of the point of Lean is not quote unquote implementing Lean. The, the, to me, the point of Lean is improving safety, improving quality, improving patient flow, improving Yes.
Mark Graban (44m 50s):
Their experience. I, and if, like, if, if someone could demonstrate there's a better way of accomplishing those goals, like, okay, great,
Shaunté Kinch (44m 57s):
Mark Graban (44m 58s):
Yeah, let's, let's, let's evolve the method, or I'm not expecting You know, and I don't hear you saying this, I don't expect AI to be a silver bullet magic solution of like, oh, we don't need Lean anymore because we ai, but how do we supplement, how do we evolve our practices using, using different technologies? We don't have to do things the way Toyota did it in the 1950s, which is no respect to, no disrespect to Toyota.
Shaunté Kinch (45m 25s):
Right? Absolutely. We evolve. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there would be an expectation of the founders to evolve and You know, I absolutely agree with you. And I think that You know, one of my biggest pet peeves is tools. Elles, like people that are just stuck on tools and You know, it's like, Ooh, what are you using for that? And You know just, it's like, well, what's the thinking behind it? Can you explain your thinking? I wanna know. You can think, and I You know, I I I am concerned around the abil the future ability of critical thinking.
Shaunté Kinch (46m 8s):
So looking at the opposite direction of the advances in technology, I think there is a sweet spot in the middle where it can be used to enhance your critical thinking, but if people use it to replace their critical thinking, it's gonna be a problem. And yeah, so I am, I'm, I'm a thinker and I love light bulb moments and seeing people think and helping people think and see things in new ways. Yeah.
Mark Graban (46m 41s):
Yeah. So there's, there's evolution in some of your own work. You mentioned Mike Rona, for people who don't know Mike, he was at Boeing, got into healthcare. He actually, he wrote the introduction to the first edition of my book, Lean Hospitals. Not because I knew him really well, but like to me You know 2008, he was You know, a leading You know figure in, in, in, in this work. And I know you You know you worked with him and his firm for a while, but now you've started Impact Global You know, tell us a little bit about some of that shift to, to working independently, to starting your own firm and, and, and how that allows you to evolve in, in, in ways of your choosing or evolving in response to opportunities and pressures out
Shaunté Kinch (47m 30s):
There. Yeah, so I am, I am in the middle of a growth spurt. I am in a very uncomfortable place, but I welcome it. Starting, starting something new and, and starting something on my own. Being an entrepreneur is a new space for me. So I'm learning, I'm growing and I, there's You know, I am honest enough to say I absolutely don't know it all. So I'm, I am learning right now. But Impact Global is a worldwide consultant.
Shaunté Kinch (48m 12s):
Well, actually I probably should say what, what do you Interstellar first client was NAS is nasa, right? So maybe it's more than the world, but, but we are are tackling big systemic problems. So improving them, designing them, designing new ways and innovating. And the difference between what I have been doing and what I am doing now is moving from primarily process focus to system focus. Because I believe that there's so many things at play in addition to process that impact outcomes.
Shaunté Kinch (48m 56s):
You know there are, there's the, the people, the process, the technology, the beliefs, the culture, the leadership. There's, there's so many things that go into it that I think if we look at it at things, at certain things too narrow, we're gonna miss some other opportunities. And so I am leveraging my background in Lean six Sigma, human-centered design and systems thinking to look at things in new ways to start with empathy and start with what is the experience, what is the journey of the customer?
Shaunté Kinch (49m 37s):
What is the need? How does it feel? And I think sometimes feeling can be missed when we just look at process. But I think there's so much, there's so much opportunity and, and beyond, the problems I'm looking at are bigger, they are You know for, I'll give an example. So if NASA we're looking at You know 50 years from now, what are the problems the world might face? And if, if those things come to be, how could we avoid them?
Shaunté Kinch (50m 19s):
Or You know, how could, could aviation play a role in avoiding them? Or if nothing changes, would aviation cause them? So how do we, how do we stop that? So really looking at things differently, but the background in lean and the foundation I have in Lean has been able to help catapult me and, and look at things in a unique way. So really excited about that.
Mark Graban (50m 47s):
Yeah. Yeah. So before we wrap up, You know, I wanna You know, touch on, when you talk about big systemic problems or opportunities for improvement or evolution, You know we can look at, let's say in You know in particular within Lean circles, conferences, events, speakers could even look to my own podcast for opportunities for improvement. But looking at You know diversity and representation and yes. And how do we frame the opportunity slash problem? What, what, what can we or what should we be doing to improve on those fronts?
Shaunté Kinch (51m 30s):
Yes. I think that equity is a huge opportunity. That is one of the reasons I wanted to create my own organization was to include that lens on everything that I do. There's, I see a lot of data. I see organizations asking to collect data, analyze data, but rarely, if ever have I been asked or been a part of looking at it from a equity lens. And it's like, well, why is no one looking at this? It might look like we don't have a problem. But if you look at it from a different angle, if you stratify the data from an equity standpoint, you might find a problem
Mark Graban (52m 19s):
And not just a quote unquote big vague concern, but a more precisely defined absolute problem statement with a gap.
Shaunté Kinch (52m 28s):
Right? Yes. I will, I'll give you an example. One client has a, a wonderful leader who we were, the organization I consult with was engaged to help them on their ambulatory access and improving their ambulatory sites. In this organization, they have faculty practices and they have clinics. These two places have different outcomes. The wait times are different. They see different demographics of patients, they accept different insurances.
Shaunté Kinch (53m 11s):
The leader called it out. She said, we have designed in systemic racism in our organization. She's saying, we're not gonna do this anymore. There will be no differentiation. We will not say we accept this insurance over here and we don't accept it over here. We will not say that it's gonna take you this much time to be seen over here and this little time to be seen over here. And she actually broke down to the entire team where that comes from in the history of the United States and how that came to be. And You know called it what it was. She's like, this is racism today.
Shaunté Kinch (53m 53s):
Just so happens that it is Juneteenth. We are, it's a, a celebration of freedom for all of Americans to really support. And I'm grateful to be able to share and tell everyone to consider looking as you facilitate Lean events or if you're a leader with the organization, look from an equity, diversity, and inclusion lens. Lean can be applied to improve all of these things.
Shaunté Kinch (54m 37s):
There is data, there are observations that can be made. There are targets that can be set. There's root causes to be done. The process works. We just have to apply it to those problems. So sometimes you may think, well, we don't have a problem there. Our wait times are fine or our clinical outcomes are fine, or our access is fine, but what does it look like for this group of people? What does it look like for this age range? What does it look like for people this disability? What does it look like for this people, people this insurance, and I shouldn't be talking just healthcare, but in general you can look at it from your customer's point of view, what is their experience?
Shaunté Kinch (55m 23s):
And Lean is a great method to apply a practice philosophy to apply to help with equity. Yeah.
Mark Graban (55m 34s):
And I mean there, there are different levels. I mean there are different problem statements here. One is, let's say the health outcomes, inequities and health outcomes. Absolutely. Really serious problem that You know some organizations and and healthcare are kind of combining You know the the the the the, the focus on, or it's a question of, I I think as you put it, what problems are we trying to solve with Lean thinking and, and we're gonna look at data and, and not ignore inequities and health outcomes or inequities in employee safety outcomes. Yes. Based on different demographic lines and, and and what are we just excusing or saying, well, that's just the way it is.
Mark Graban (56m 22s):
And instead of challenging ourselves to figure out how, not just throw our hands up and say, we don't have time or this isn't solvable. I'm like, well, no. Yeah, work, work. Like do the work, work on it. Don't don't don't just give up. You know. There's the question around You know conference stages and, and, and I think the organizations putting on events are being more mindful of diversity. But You know, it comes back to the question of are the efforts and the countermeasures enough? Like and, and You know, I I I I try to think of people's perspectives and I don't know if this is the best way to ask it, but I'll, I'll ask it anyway.
Mark Graban (57m 3s):
You know Shaunté, what, what does it, how does it feel to go to a conference and not see a black woman on stage?
Shaunté Kinch (57m 12s):
It feels normal and it feels sad and disappointing. It feels normal because my entire life I have been the only black female in every space. Does that feel good? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And it makes you question at times. You have to have a, you have to have high self-esteem and self-confidence because without that you will question, am I supposed to be here? You'll question, am I supposed to be here?
Shaunté Kinch (57m 55s):
I became an engineer because one day I had, I had been to a conference and it was female engineers that were good presenting to us to a bunch of young girls. And so I just started saying I was gonna be an engineer. And someone said to me, people like you aren't engineers. And I really didn't have a huge appreciation for what an engineer was or what kind I wanted to be. But at that moment when someone told me I wasn't supposed to be one that solidified my major, and that's why I became an engineer, didn't even know what kind I was gonna be. I was like, I'm gonna be one cuz someone told me I wasn't supposed to. But every time I'm at a conference or I'm somewhere or I see a webinar or I see a thing where there's a bunch of faces presenting and none of them, and they don't, they're not representatives.
Shaunté Kinch (58m 49s):
The little girl in me questions, am I supposed to be here? And then the woman in me says, absolutely. Because you need to be the face for other people to see you absolutely need to be here. And so that, that is one of the other reasons I stepped out to create my own thing is because I need to be a face for the next generation. I want to help increase the number of biopic people in this field. I am committed to personally developing and mentoring others.
Shaunté Kinch (59m 30s):
And so it feels disappointing that in 2023 that is still issue, but I am doing my part to help combat combat it.
Mark Graban (59m 47s):
Yeah. Well, You know, thank you. And I You know, I think all of us need to work on, on that You know and think about systemic structures the way it's always been. Yes. How do we do hiring into an organization? Where do we find speakers? Well, it's people we know. It's people in our network. And, and, and at some point You know you've, you've gotta you've gotta reach beyond the way we've always hired, the way we've always selected speakers. Yes. You know there. I mean there was, I mean we, we, instead of making excuses go find a way, if someone would say, we cannot find enough qualified people of color, color to come up and speak on our stage, I'm like, try harder.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 0m 32s):
Mark Graban (1h 0m 32s):
They're out there. Absolutely.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 0m 34s):
Mark Graban (1h 0m 34s):
You might not know who they are.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 0m 36s):
Mark Graban (1h 0m 37s):
But, but, but try harder instead of saying, we don't have the time to find them or they can't be found. That's self-defeating and yes. Perpetuating.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 0m 47s):
And it goes back to how a lot of decisions are made based on relationship and is that the right process? Yeah. What is the process? Right. So we, we need to apply You know Lean practitioners and, and organizations should apply the thinking that they do to service and product development and delivery to everything. Yeah.
Mark Graban (1h 1m 16s):
And You know we talk about systemic causes and even systemic causes of biases or mindsets we might have, like you use the phrase systemic racism. And people who are still listening to our podcast at this point have probably, there might be some people who've got upset and turned it off already.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 1m 37s):
Mark Graban (1h 1m 38s):
I hope not. But there's probably some. Yeah. But I mean, I think one thing worth emphasizing here, and and I think I've I've come to better understand is that describing systemic racism in an organization or even at a societal level, doesn't mean every person in that system is a bad person.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 1m 57s):
Mark Graban (1h 1m 58s):
And some people get really offended and say, well, you say there's systemic racism, you're calling us all racist. I'm like, I don't think that's what's being said.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 2m 6s):
Right. And the example I described was about how the process was set up. It wasn't about a person at all. And what's fascinating is the majority of the leadership team of that institution is black. So racism can be internal. I didn't say the people were racist systems. The design of the systems were are. And I think people do tend to hear a word and turn off You know they hear a word and they're like, oh, I'm not listening anymore.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 2m 47s):
It's like, no, what what's actually being said here? You know it. It had nothing to do with the individuals, their thinking, their thoughts, their beliefs. It's the design of the processes and the systems. And it's not necessarily, it wasn't intentional. I hope not. It could have been, but originally it could have been. Who knows? But it doesn't even matter at this point. Why initially, what are we gonna do about it? What are we gonna do about it?
Mark Graban (1h 3m 20s):
And there, there are. So I was gonna ask you to share about some of the things people are doing about this. So thinking of going back upstream of how are we developing and bringing people along so that they get skills and knowledge and experience and accomplishments to be on those stages. You know in in, in terms of, I I mean there are, there are some specific activities, different organizations or I was, I was gonna ask you to share what you're
Shaunté Kinch (1h 3m 55s):
Aware of. Yeah. So for one, I'm, I just interviewed for a intern and the interns that I interviewed are from North Carolina a and t University, which is a historically black college and university, one of the top engineering schools in the country. And that is one way is to develop your pipeline and to create from the beginning. Now everyone doesn't have time. You know to, to wait You know 10 years to have a new employee. But that is just one strategy and one place to start.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 4m 35s):
There needs to be a multi-product approach. Another approach is to leverage organizations such as the National Society of Black Engineers. There there is a whole cadre of African-American and black engineers, including systems and Industrial engineers that would have the same, if not more knowledge that I started You know when I was outta college, all of us learned on the ground. All of us learned in the workplace, all of us learned on the job, really learned on the job.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 5m 17s):
So why would we not give someone else that opportunity? Another oh, and that organization has a, what's called a process improvement industry group. So they are certifying people, whether they are new college grads, they have an alumni chapter with people that have graduated and are in already working. So they're certifying people through their organization. I think one frustration that I have had is that if you look at the diversity of organizations and you look at, okay, what's the percent of Latinx or black people or whatever in this organization, even if the percentage isn't bad, look at it from a leadership standpoint.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 6m 10s):
What, what does it look like at the top? There needs to be recruiting and searches going on for minority talent at the top of organizations. If you can pay a recruiter or search firm, tell them specifically what you're looking for and what you want, they can find it. But we don't ask. We're not, we're not asking for that. And a lot of times it is just who do I know? So it it go like, again, it goes back to process. Where are we looking? It exists. People exist.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 6m 50s):
We exist, we're out here. There are opportunities to be had and most people are developed on the job practice. Practitioners practice. You have to practice on the job. You are mentored, you are coached. This is a coaching profession. We coach each other and we are developed that way. So all you need, all anyone needs is they need an opportunity and, and development can be had. So I think, I think a lot of things are excuses, a lot of excuses,
Mark Graban (1h 7m 28s):
Excuses, assumptions. And yes, I'm not trying to You know when I talk about a pipeline of people, I'm not trying to say this problem will be solved in the future. It Right. Can be solved today. Right now in addition to Yes. Making sure that there are yes. Not inequities of opportunity for college students or younger today.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 7m 49s):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And You know, going back to Juneteenth, which I just happen to have my Juneteenth t-shirt on today cause I'm gonna go celebrate this afternoon. But You know that's what it's all about. It is about, and America, where all people are, are created equal. Equal. And the freedoms that we share and organizations should look internally to say, are we providing equal opportunity?
Shaunté Kinch (1h 8m 30s):
Do our people feel free? And going back to what you said, I think I love the idea of of employee, employee service and how do employees feel, because I'm not sure how many organizations are looking at the satisfaction and experience of their people data stratified, right. Because I think that would be very telling
Mark Graban (1h 8m 57s):
And, and and and some are and it is telling. Yeah. And eye-opening. And then what action are you are, are you, are you gonna take, I I would hope if people are gonna stratify the data and look at it, be prepared to do something about it instead of just Right. Excuse it the way sometimes with say hospital acquired infections of like, well these things, it's sad that these things happen. Like, no, we're on it.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 9m 21s):
Right? And You know if you have business resource groups or they have different names in different organizations, You know sometimes that's what they say their, their tactic is. And most of those organizations don't have levers. They don't have operational control over anything. They can't hire, they can't, they can't promote. But that's what their missions are. And so You know, let's not just be performative and say things or put things in place because it has a name and we can publish about it, but what can you actually do? What's tangible You know, make sure people have the levers to do what's being asked of them to do.
Mark Graban (1h 10m 6s):
Well, Shaunté, thank you You know for, for doing the episode. I'm glad we could do this. thank you for, for doing it today on You know the third year that the United States recognizes Juneteenth as a federal holiday. You know, going back to, I encourage people, a lot of people, if if you're not aware of the history of Juneteenth You know you, you, you can look that up and You know that, that proclamation of freedom, and I'm in Texas today as we're recording this, that this happened in Texas this day, 1865 and You know that that's only a couple lifetimes ago.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 10m 44s):
Mark Graban (1h 10m 45s):
I mean, it's, it's, yeah, it really makes you pause and reflect and, and say, okay, like,
Shaunté Kinch (1h 10m 53s):
Yeah, it's a great day for everyone, especially people that have positions of influence to say, what can I do different? How can I make things better? So, thank you for having me. I appreciate even more the fact that this was not planned for me to, for me to record on Juneteenth. We had a couple of other dates and due to some complex, we had to change it, but this was a date that I chose, and so I, I appreciate that because You know there, there's so many organizations that, oh, there's something coming up.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 11m 40s):
Let's look for a black face. And that's not what happened here. And, and so I, I appreciate that. I appreciate the opportunity and yeah.
Mark Graban (1h 11m 51s):
Well, I'm, I'm, thank you, Shaunté. I'm glad we, we could talk about such a wide range of topics here today. So again, Shaunté Kinch has been our guest. I will put links in the show notes to Shaunté's LinkedIn profile to the Impact Global website. And for people who poke around on the website, they will see I'm, I'm listed. I'm happy to be listed on the website with Shaunté as we look to create some opportunities to You know, partner up in helping people absolutely solve big, challenging problems. It's, it's inspiring vision that you have Shaunté and yeah, look forward to, to working with you and, and maybe even having you back here on the podcast again.
Shaunté Kinch (1h 12m 31s):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. Have a good day.
Mark Graban (1h 12m 33s):
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