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My guest for Episode #420 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast is Katie Anderson, appearing for the sixth time and the first time as a live-streaming guest! Katie is a leadership & learning coach, consultant, speaker, author | Japan Study Trip Leader. She's the founder and principal consultant at her own firm. You can find previous episodes here.
She's the author of the book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn: Lessons from Toyota Leader Isao Yoshino on a Lifetime of Continuous Learning. Tomorrow is the first anniversary (or birthday) of the book! To celebrate, there's a short-term Kindle book sale (99 cents or 99 pence in the UK) from Wednesday to Friday this week July 14, 15, 16.
Topics, questions, and links related to today's episode include:
- You asked yesterday, in your email newsletter, “What does leadership mean to you?” — how do you answer that question?
- How has your answer changed thanks to the influence of Mr. Yoshino?
- What have you learned in the past year since the publication of your book? Or I should ask, what stands out most in terms of what you have learned?
- Did the audiobook process yield any further content to the print edition?
- What was the process for creating and recording the audio book?
- Is there something new, work related or otherwise, that you've started learning recently? Has helped you think about learning, coaching, and practicing differently?
- You and Mr. Yoshino were guests together on “My Favorite Mistake” — if I had a podcast called “My Most Recent Mistake” — what is one that comes to mind?
- Best Thing / Worst Thing — What's the best thing and the worst thing about…
- Writing and publishing a book?
- Working in healthcare improvement?
- Being active on LinkedIn?
- Living in Japan full time as an American?
- The gelato post that Katie wrote
- Tell us about some of the coaching you've been doing, including the K2C2 Coaching Communities…
- The “Leading to Learn Accelerator”?
The podcast is sponsored by Stiles Associates, now in their 30th year of business. They are the go-to Lean recruiting firm serving the manufacturing, private equity, and healthcare industries. Learn more.
This podcast is part of the #LeanCommunicators network.
Watch the Episode:
Automated Transcript (Not Guaranteed to be Defect Free)
Welcome to the lean blog podcast. Visit our firstname.lastname@example.org. Now here's your host Mark Graban.
Mark Graban (13s):
Hi everybody. Mark Graban here. It's episode 420 for July 13th, 2021. This is probably the last live episode that we'll do over the summer. We'll continue revisiting past episodes from the 15 years of the Lean Blog Interviews podcast. For show notes and links and more go to lean blog.org/420. Today is a conversation with Katie Anderson. This was live-streamed earlier today through LinkedIn, YouTube and Facebook. And that's a, it's probably not something that's to become that won't become standardized work for this podcast, but we'll continue experimenting with that in different ways in the future.
Mark Graban (57s):
So here is that episode, the recording of the live stream with Katie. Everybody welcome to this special live streamed and recorded episode of the lean blog interviews podcast. I'm your host Mark Graban. This is episode 420 of the podcast. So you'll be able to find show notes, leanblog.org/420. So before I give a little bit more of an introduction to our guests, Katie Anderson, Katie, how are you doing?
Katie Anderson (1m 30s):
I'm great mark. And I'm really excited to be here today. And I believe this is my sixth episode with you. So this is a exciting to continue our conversations.
Mark Graban (1m 38s):
Yes, it is the sixth time that you've been a guest. And I think you'll, we'll be able to explore some topics and questions that we haven't covered before. So I'll put a link in the show notes if people want to go listen to those previous episodes, because the first time I interviewed you, you were actually at the time you were living in Japan.
Katie Anderson (1m 59s):
I was, I think it was in the first six months of me living in Japan back in 2015, which now is starting to feel like a long time ago and it's continued my journey. And it was sort of that time was the genesis of so much that we're going to talk about here today. So I'm looking forward on looking back and looking ahead. Yeah.
Mark Graban (2m 19s):
And so we can kind of trace Katie's journey a little bit through these different podcast episodes. And to tell you a little bit more about her, if you don't know Katie, she is a leadership and learning coach. She is a consultant. She's a speaker, she's an author. She has been at Japan study trip leader. And I know she was very much looking forward to being able to do that again in the future fingers crossed for those who are just listening. She is the founder and principal consultant at her own firm. And one of the things we're celebrating today is she is Katie is the author of a book titled learning to lead, leading to learn: lessons from Toyota Leader, Isao Yoshino on a lifetime of continuous learning.
Mark Graban (3m 1s):
And tomorrow is the first anniversary of the book, right? Katie?
Katie Anderson (3m 5s):
Yes. I can't believe it's been a year already that the book's been out and it's really exciting week here.
Mark Graban (3m 13s):
Another thing that makes us exciting, not just celebrating the first, is it a book's birthday or an anniversary? I'm not sure.
Katie Anderson (3m 21s):
I don't know the pen after having someone been someone who's given birth. I don't, maybe I actually, I would say maybe a book is it's like birthing, birthing a book that we could call it the, the birthday or its publication anniversary, the launch.
Mark Graban (3m 35s):
So the launch first anniversary of the launch this week, tomorrow is the launch of I'll just let you tell her,
Katie Anderson (3m 44s):
Oh, of the audio book version. So last July in 2020, we published the print version and the ebook version of learning to lead, leading to learn. And I had so many requests for an audio version. So it was one of my top priorities for this year. And it's narrated by me with guest appearances by Isao Yoshino, who is the subject of my book. And John Shook who read his forward. And I'm really thrilled to be coordinating the release of the audio book on the anniversary or birthday of, of the book's release.
Mark Graban (4m 20s):
Well, congratulations on that milestone. And one other thing, Katie is doing the celebrate the anniversary of the book, which is also available as a Kindle book. If you want to tell them real quick about the Kindle books say,
Katie Anderson (4m 32s):
Oh yes. So in thank you, Mark. For, for, in celebration of the anniversary of the book's release, we're running a three-day Kindle sale. It will be 99 cents or 99 pence in the U S and UK Amazon market. So if you're looking to get your copy tomorrow, or I shouldn't say tomorrow, Wednesday, July 14th, 15th and 16th of 2021, though, there'll be a 99 cents in Pence, a Kindle deal in your, in your region. So I'm really excited to be able to do that.
Mark Graban (5m 5s):
And I'll make sure there's a link to that in the show notes where people will be able to find that on Amazon. So we're going to dive into some questions and we've got the opportunity for the audience to submit questions. Before I talk about that, it's just cool to scroll through. We've got people here from India, the UK Serbia, Syracuse, New York, Louisiana, Pittsburgh, Ghana, Bangladesh, Croatia, Ontario, Texas, my home state originally of Michigan, Saudi Arabia, Mexico city. Like this is, this is pretty amazing that we get to reach so many, so many people from so many countries. And thank you for joining us here today.
Mark Graban (5m 45s):
I've got some questions I'm going to kick things off with, but if you would like to submit a question for Katie, use the chat, I'm going to do my best to help scroll through and manage this. But please clearly label if you're submitting a question, if you'd just put an all caps question to make it clear that, you know, cause sometimes people want to just comment and that's great, but if there is something that you're submitting as a question, please clearly label it. And I'm more likely to be able to get to that question. It's part of the experiment of doing something a little bit new. Yeah. So Katie, first question for you, you know, you sent out an email newsletter recently and you asked a question of, of your audience and your readers in your community.
Mark Graban (6m 27s):
What does leadership mean to you? How would you, how do you, how do you answer that question?
Katie Anderson (6m 34s):
So, you know, leadership can mean many things, but what I've really come to believe is it boils down to three essential points. And this is something I discovered through working with Mr. Yoshino and writing the book and learning so much about what leadership meant from his perspective over 40 years at Toyota, as well as my own experience, working with leaders around the world, in my coaching and consulting practice is that leaders do three. I have three really essential roles or purposes, and the first is to set direction or provide clarity of purpose of direction of targets. The second is then help their people, so support people to achieve those goals or move towards the direction.
Katie Anderson (7m 18s):
And then the third is to develop themselves. And so if we do all those things like set a clear direction, develop and support people and then develop ourselves as well. To me, that is the essence of leadership. We're helping people move towards a new challenge, a new destination, but we're also developing their capabilities at the same time and not forgetting that we need to develop our own capabilities and leadership and coaching and problem solving as well.
Mark Graban (7m 45s):
So from those three things, are they equally difficult? Is one of those, do you think more difficult or does it depend on the person and their circumstances?
Katie Anderson (7m 54s):
I think it really depends. I, all of us have different challenges and different things that come more easily and things that come that are, that are more challenging for us. And I'd say the S w when I talk about lean and continuous improvement in organizations, I'd say the same thing, you know, people say, oh, it's so easy for Toyota or it's, so it must be easier in Japan and that's not actually, you know, it's true that the sort of the principles and the deaths, you know, the, you know, how to be a better leader, how to be a better learning organization. The things that challenge us depend on our own circumstances and abilities. So, you know, like for example, for me, I'm an extrovert and I found that I, it was harder for me to sit in silence and to not interrupt people and that I really wanted to hear what they had to say, but my own desire to contribute sometimes over, you know, overcame that that might not be the same challenge for someone who might be, you know, a bit quieter or so everyone has different challenges, but how can we then learn to provide that clarity?
Katie Anderson (8m 54s):
What does it mean to develop and support other people? And then what are the things that are our challenges and opportunities for ourselves to learn and develop
Mark Graban (9m 3s):
Now either from your time living in Japan and traveling to Japan with the study trips and all of the time that you've spent talking to Mr. Yoshino, do you think your answer to the question of, you know, what, what, what is leadership has, has that changed or evolved through, through that influence?
Katie Anderson (9m 21s):
I mean, absolutely it evolves because we learn through our own experiences and what we're exposed to. And so, you know, if, if you're, if our thinking doesn't evolve, then, then we're sort of stagnant. I would say, it's, it's nothing in the last, maybe 10 years, anything that's dramatically new, it's just maybe a deeper appreciation for concepts and for practices and for what it really means to show up in these ways. And so, you know, I, my own challenges and opportunities to work with people. And so I've learned about myself and I've, I've really learned from Mr. Yoshino and his experiences too. So again, not, I think these, these leadership lessons are really timeless.
Katie Anderson (10m 3s):
Actually. One of the taglines I was thinking about a year and a half ago when I was working on the book was like timeless leadership lessons, because they aren't anything new. However, when we see them from different angles and maybe hear different experiences, we can have a renewed appreciation for what it means in practice.
Mark Graban (10m 21s):
And when you think about, so we use that word practice, you, you used the word deliberate a lot, so we can maybe, or intentional actually is the word you use more often, right? Intentional practice. We can, we can combine those words. I like that word practice a lot. That's why I've titled one of the books that I collaborated with others on practicing lean and leadership is something also, I just want to hear your thoughts on the idea of maybe not just practicing lean, but practicing, leading, practicing coaching as you've been doing a lot of recently, what, what are some of the thoughts that come to mind?
Mark Graban (11m 3s):
The thinking of this evolution that we go through? It's not, yes, no, I haven't been trained now. I'm trained. Wasn't good at this now. I'm good at this. What, what are your thoughts on that practicing?
Katie Anderson (11m 14s):
I love that word practice as well. You know, I think it's, I talk about how do we connect purpose process and practice, and it's through the practice that we then achieve higher levels of performance yet. We're not, not always, like, we're never really reaching that destination of perfection or the ultimate expert. We're just continuing to learn and evolve along the way. And so I think it's when we think about it as practice, it really helps ground us that we're always learning and where there's always new things that we can do, or the opportunities for improvement. And it's when we, when we sort of stop thinking that we have opportunities to improve, that we really, I guess, lose, lose that humility and lose that real connection for what it means to be a leader.
Katie Anderson (11m 60s):
So I love that word practice. And you mentioned the word intention and that's, you know, that really is my, my key word and what I consider to be my purpose, which is helping inspire people around the world to live and lead with intention. And to me, that's about understanding, what's your purpose? What are your values? What's important about who you want to be, and then how do you align your actions in that direction? Because sometimes we have the intention internally of the impact we want to have, but our actions that we take might not actually serve us in that direction. So that's our opportunity for improvement is creating greater alignment between action and purpose to deliver the impact we want.
Mark Graban (12m 38s):
And, and, and to me, you know, doing something with intention makes me think of our friend w you can call it the PDCA cycles or the PTSA cycles. I like to say plan, do study adjust. And I think doing something with intention certainly involves some planning and then some doing or some testing, but then being intentional about the study and adjust and making sure we're not just going and doing randomly or random things. We're not saying just leaders, go, go coach and develop people like a, whenever I don't know, something, something will come up, something will happen. Like we need to go create these opportunities as a leader, right?
Katie Anderson (13m 20s):
Yes. And I, I prefer calling the scientific method plan, do study adjust as well. And I'm actually advocating for, for us to re frame what we're the we're the acronym starts with study and adjust to emphasize how important the study in the learning component is. We sometimes get caught in these plan, do plan, do cycles cause PD, you know, we, we don't ever get to the S and the, a, the study and the just, or the check and act. And I like to say that reflection is the beginning and not the end of learning. So we need to really deeply understand study and reflect this concept in Japanese about Han say, which is self-reflection and how do we bring that practice more deeply into what we do every day as individuals, and then at the organizational level as well?
Katie Anderson (14m 6s):
Mark Graban (14m 7s):
I mean, I see what you're saying about, you know, starting with study, because I think there, there would be a trap. I mean, there's the words, and then there's the intent and how this is taught and coached as, as we all practice this. I think there, I could see where there's a trap where people say, oh, plan, I have a plan let's plan to do something. Well, wait a minute. You know, I think I was taught that, that the, the initial plan does involve make sure you understand the current state, you could call that study. I think the intent or the mindset
Katie Anderson (14m 38s):
There, it's a, you know, it's a continuous cycle, so it's really where, where you start. But I like SAP D because it really reminds us to start with studying and to not skip that step. However, as long you're doing it continuously and studying and adjusting is part of your continuous improvement cycle for yourself and the organization. You know, it doesn't matter, but I, I'm an advocate for SAP D and want to start a movement.
Mark Graban (15m 4s):
And if people, I mean there, and, and, you know, there, there, there are these different traps, I think, to be, to be careful about jumping, to do planning and doing without studying and adjusting, or, you know, I think one reason, you know, some have shifted away from saying check or even w Edwards Deming from earlier works. He would talk about plan, do check act, and then he started writing plan, do study act because I, the one explanation I've heard of the danger of misinterpreting, the word check is like, it's sort of a rote chunk, the box plan do check that you did it. I'm like, well, no, that, that, that's not really what's
Katie Anderson (15m 41s):
Meant. Right. Well, and I've been talking to Mr. Yoshino about this as well, because it Toyota when Deming was teaching them, he was in the using plan, do check act as the cycle. So that was what got embedded at Toyota and continued forward. And he, and I have had some conversations recently about how the con the word check can make it sometimes feel even punitive. Yeah. It's a check the box or it's something, did you do it, or do you not, and could have a, a judgment rather than I'm coming to learn and support and, and, and do that studying about what's working or what's not. So he's actually even shifting some of his, his language, but it is deeply ingrained. So in the book we talk about PD CA although when I speak in my coaching and consulting, I talk about PTSA or SAPD.
Katie Anderson (16m 25s):
Mark Graban (16m 25s):
And a lot of explanations of PTSA I've even seen, you know, from Toyota people, you get into the fine print, you know, buy, buy, do it talks about doing a test. And the small test of change. The one proposal I've made is that we could runs risk of confusing with parent teacher, student association, but the TSA of plan, test, study, adjust. I'm like, well, if we say, do, but then we explained, we'll do means test. I'm like, well, we could just, we could just say test,
Katie Anderson (16m 55s):
Then we're getting, yeah. We're experiment. P E S a that's all one word. Yes. Does it flow? It doesn't flow quite as well off the tongue. Maybe
Mark Graban (17m 6s):
We would just have to practice saying it maybe.
Katie Anderson (17m 8s):
Yes. And again, we're using English words, so it, you know, it could be different, even different acronyms in different languages as well. Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Graban (17m 17s):
So I'll come back to you. You talk about these ongoing conversations that you had with Mr. Yoshino and your collaboration and your friendship, and, you know, the coaching and the mentoring that goes on in both directions. You know, so since the book has been published, since the book was written more than a year ago, you continue to have these conversations. I mean, what's something that stands out to you. Something that you've learned from these ongoing discussions with Mr. Yoshino that maybe wasn't even yet captured in, in, in, in the book.
Katie Anderson (17m 49s):
So it was really interesting, you know, well, as we were writing the book and a lot of the stories that emerged and how, you know, I've written them in a linear way, but many of the experiences did, you know, it came out over years and, and really putting together the stories for those of you who have read or now listen to the book, the water ski boat, a decade really pieced together. And new information was even coming out in my conversations with Mr. Yoshino, like a week before we published.
Mark Graban (18m 19s):
And for those who don't know the whole story, when you say the waterski decade, if you could explain
Katie Anderson (18m 24s):
That a little bit. Yeah. So a quick comment. So Mr. Yoshino, his last normal, almost last decade of his time at Toyota. So the end of the nineties, and into the early two thousands, he had an idea for a new business venture for, for Toyota. And it was a water ski boat, a high-end Lexus engine waterski boat in the, for the U S market. And it ultimately was a huge failure for a variety of reasons. And you can explore that in the book, but Mr. Yoshino always was very transparent about the fact that he had this big business failure, that cost Toyota millions of dollars. And it, he personally felt a lot of responsibility for, but there, there weren't a lot of details around what that, what that was.
Katie Anderson (19m 5s):
And, and so it took us years and years to sort of unpeel and uncover, and actually one of the biggest, I guess, gifts and joys for me that I was able to give Mr. Yoshino is a shift in his own thinking about what this failure meant. And one day he had this more joyful expression on his face and talking about it. He said, yeah, I've seen seeing this from a new angle and you're helping me. Your questions are helping me see this experience. Not always from a bad lens, but from a positive lens and the, and the, and the richness of the story. And so that's an example of things that were emerging, but there was a certain point I remember sitting around like, okay, Mr. Yoshino, you know, if anything else comes out, we're just going to have to like, write some articles or some, we got it.
Katie Anderson (19m 51s):
We got to published this, this book. So things that have come out in the last year, I would say, are, are less of details around stories, more discontinued reflections on what the principles and practices of leadership and leading a purposeful life have meant, particularly in a pandemic. You know, the most of this book was constructed pre COVID. I w I had written, I was, I was revising the book when, when the pandemic really hit. And so really reflecting for both of us on what does this mean for us, you know, living in this new world, what does it mean to publish a book in a pandemic?
Katie Anderson (20m 31s):
And, you know, we had, we had plans to be together multiple times across three different continents last year in 2020, of course, that didn't happen, but we've continued to collaborate virtually Mr. Yoshino, just the other night, we were talking the concept of patients and he was saying it was fun. He was finding it hard to be patient. And I reminded him of a quote of his, from the book that he learned many years ago, that being patient requires a lot of patients. And, you know, I think that's really true that sometimes, sometimes it's hard to, it's hard, it's hard to be patient, right. You know, he was, he re only recently got his vaccine at the age of 77 in Japan.
Katie Anderson (21m 13s):
This is in June and, you know, he's ready to see people. And as you know, thankfully we reflected on gratitude as well, that he's remained healthy during, and during this time. And I think the concept of challenge and the, the Japanese proper fall down seven times get up eight has really been true for all of us in different ways. This last year, you know, things we all had challenges. Some of us had bigger challenges than others and continuing to continuing to do so how do we continue to get up and move forward and learn from those experiences? And even if there are challenging times, how can you, how do we move forward in life as well?
Katie Anderson (21m 54s):
So I think those are, those have been some of the big reflections too. And, and how can you still find the good in circumstances even when they're not so feeling so good at the time as well? Yeah.
Mark Graban (22m 7s):
And we've got a question that came in kind of related to this kind of ongoing continued learning. And one thing I just noticed here, it seems like the chat coming from LinkedIn into the restream platform somehow got disconnected. So if I flip over to LinkedIn, I can actually see some questions there. So Ann asks, and we can delve into the audio book process a little bit here, because we do like talking about process with the, the new audio book version. Did the audio book process yield any further content to the print edition or maybe another way of asking that is like, did you go off script and add some things or were you pretty much word for word just from the book?
Katie Anderson (22m 48s):
So, yeah. So thank you. That was really, actually, it was fun to do the reading of, or the narration of, of the book. There were, I, I read it verbatim for the most part. The only thing that I did add at the end was more resources, which I did. I mentioned the workbook that I've created, it's a companion guide, but that's really the only thing I went off script for, even though there were some sentences as I was reading them like, oh, this is a bit wordy and challenging to say, you know, there's some, some of those things that in writing seem fine. And then when you're trying to say them are more challenging, but I really did for the most part. I mean, I think it's probably 99.9% verbatim reading.
Mark Graban (23m 32s):
So there were some plan do study, adjust cycles. You're planning your reading and writing to be read is different than writing to be spoken in a lot of different ways.
Katie Anderson (23m 44s):
I'm sure for sure. And, you know, I have a lot, I have some Japanese words throughout the book and I studied Japanese when I was living in Japan and subsequently, but it's, I've gotten quite rusty over the last year and a half. And there was some, there was some names and some words that I were tongue twisters, or I wasn't quite sure if I was saying them accurately. So I would go back and keep reading them again. So, you know, there's these things where it's, you know, you read it in your brain and that's fine. And then you, when you're saying it, you're you realize, oh, I, I'm not quite sure if I'm saying this right. But in the spirit of good is better, is better than perfect and not getting it out. I hope people will give grace if there's some, some small mispronunciations here and there.
Katie Anderson (24m 27s):
Mark Graban (24m 28s):
Well, and you know, w w one of the things we get stepped back to ask about the book process, there's the writing, but then you chose to publish the book and then you created and published the audio book. I mean, I guess you always do have the ability. I'm not trying to put pressure on you, but maybe for the second anniversary. I mean, yeah. I mean, you can always go back and fix the typo with print on demand, or you can, you could do a revised edition at some point. You've got a lot of freedom and flexibility. That's one great thing about software. Yeah.
Katie Anderson (24m 59s):
Yes. Well, you know, you asked me earlier about like my greatest mistake or my recent mistakes. So I did find some after we published the book and I'm so grateful for Karen Martin, she, she re she's a great lean thinker and author who's come before me. And she, she reassured me that there were going to be typos in the book, despite countless people. And like, I, you know, we had hired editors and proofreaders and Mr. Yoshino and I were reading it multiple times. It still thinks snuck through. And so actually in the first, I guess, even in the first few months, we went back and corrected a few, a few rounds of some edits. So if you have a book that was published in the first round, you got the, you ordered it in July of 2020, you have a few more typos in there, a limited edition.
Katie Anderson (25m 42s):
And we did go through and make some of those changes. Although I have to say, when I was reading the book for the audio book, I found a few small, a few small edits or small titles, which when we made, made as well, but, you know, it's, it's a good reminder of the fallacy of human inspection. I always think about that. How do we poke a YOKA, how do we, how do we air proof? And that's despite many, many, many people reading the book in before publication it's. Yeah.
Mark Graban (26m 10s):
So, I mean, you know, even with my book measures of success, which I published myself, there were, I had a professional editor working with me. There are CA there was a copy editor from a firm that did the book layout, there's even a sub specialty of proofreader, which is, I guess, you know, a more specific role. And, and, and, and still like Karen was saying, and I would have coached you the same way. Even books published by large publishing houses. I mean, the first of Jeff likers amazing book, the Toyota way had a typo on page one. I forget what the title of it was.
Katie Anderson (26m 51s):
So it, it always, all of that makes me, makes me feel better, but I, you know, I'm so grateful and glad that I, I chose to establish my own publishing company and retain, you know, the, the decision-making for, for all of that. I had opportunities to go with some publishing houses, but I really wanted to retain the creative control. And it was an exciting business venture for me to, to learn something do around the world of publishing. So that's been, that's been a fun journey and that I've enjoyed it. Yeah.
Mark Graban (27m 22s):
And they also maintain business control when it comes to pricing and other decisions that a publisher might end up making for you first edition of my first book, lean hospitals also had a typo on page one. So, I mean, like, yeah, I could understand like proofread, it gets fatigued by the time, you know, they've read 30 pages and maybe they haven't taken a break, but it just goes to show like the brain and our eyes play tricks on us. And it's really hard to inspect quality into any sort of product or process.
Katie Anderson (27m 54s):
Yes. Yeah, for sure. And I'm, I'm also excited now that to be seeing the book come out in other languages, although I will not have the publishing control over that. So it's already out in Spanish published by the lean Institute, Columbia, and then I'm just signing deals right now for it to be translated into Polish and Japanese. So I'm really thrilled about that.
Mark Graban (28m 14s):
That is great. So let's step back, you know, I'm curious, cause I've never done an audio book. What was some of the process that you went through in terms of not just the technology involved, but the approach that you took to turn the printed page into how many hours of fraud? I guess the first question I'm asking too many questions, how many hours of listening is it and how many hours did it take to record?
Katie Anderson (28m 43s):
Yeah, so I, I, didn't not like record, you know, document sort of how specifically how many hours, but at the final, the final audio book is about eight hours of spoken time. And I would imagine it's about double that because of, there were some sections that had to rerecord and then, you know, you, if you're stumbling over a sentence, you just keep you keep saying it over and over again. So, but you know, you can't do all that in one sitting. So it was, it was over a period of like two weeks that I did the majority of the recording. But going back to one of your first questions, what was the process? Number one important step for me was hiring an excellent audio book producer. And so, you know, as the, as the publisher and, and then narrator, I really, it was important to have a professional high quality producer who would then manage all of the sound quality, the editing, then the final construction of it.
Katie Anderson (29m 37s):
So I had a great partner, a great partner in that. And, you know, we know where I was going to record. Hopefully I was hoping it would a be able to be done in my home studio. So what we did is I had, I got, well, I'm actually, I was recorded here on this microphone that I have, but I also got, I had a boom and I had a special, I don't even know what it's called, like a screen over it to help with reverberations. So we set that up and then we tried a few different rooms with different configurations, with like blinds, pup polled, and with different rugs and carpets. So the one that actually was the best was the room that I'm typically in, in my office with the blinds pulled and with, with rug, with a thick rug on the carpet.
Katie Anderson (30m 18s):
And so it worked, it worked fine. Although we discovered an early one of the early recordings that the chair I was sitting in made a slight squeak. And so that was PTSA SAPD opportunity. So I had to rerecord some of that and then we, and then we make some, made some adjustments. So yeah, it was, it was great. And then I asked John shook if he would be willing to read his, his foreword, which he did, which is great. And then we had Mr. Yoshino read his letter to the reader and then the introductory quotes to each of the key anchor chapters. So they, you hear their voices throughout the book as well.
Mark Graban (30m 57s):
Well, that's great. And one thing I hear you saying, and I think this applies both to printed books or Kindle books and audio books. There's, there's this balance of like when you self publish, that doesn't mean do it all yourself?
Katie Anderson (31m 10s):
Mark Graban (31m 12s):
Just to emphasize that point for anyone who's thinking of, well, you know, I couldn't do that. And I think that's where self-published can be just as professional as a full-blown publishing house, because you've got access to talent that would otherwise be working sometimes as a subcontractor to, you know, a big publishing house. So self published certainly doesn't mean unprofessional anymore.
Katie Anderson (31m 38s):
There's, there's such a wide range. I mean, you could just upload a Word document and, you know, and, and truly self publish it. I wanted this book, I founded a publishing company and I w I'm a publisher and I hired a T a team across, you know, everything to, to do that in the same way that a publishing house would have those people in house. And so, yeah, absolutely that, I think there's, what's, what's great is that you can retain more flexibility and control. And as you said, and I, I really value that one of the things for me as well, and also how to make a financial upfront financial investment to be able to hire those people. That for me, knowing this book, wasn't about the money.
Katie Anderson (32m 19s):
I really wanted to get the stories out and I wanted to tell it the way I wanted to tell it. So I'm really grateful for how many, how many people have been excited by the book and reading it. And it's been wonderful. Yeah.
Mark Graban (32m 32s):
I'll also maybe all adjust my own language instead of saying self-published, it would also be accurate to say my published the book.
Katie Anderson (32m 41s):
Yes. Well, immigrant press. Yes.
Mark Graban (32m 43s):
Yeah. So one other thing I wanted to ask you, we talked earlier about practice and we talk about learning and, you know, you're often coaching people who are new at their practice of coaching others or doing things related to lean or other leadership activities. Is there something new that you've started learning and practicing recently, even if it's something let's say outside of a workplace setting, just you want to think of the, the, the power or the benefit that comes from being a new learner and going through something. Is there something that you've gone through recently or in recent years?
Katie Anderson (33m 22s):
Well, I'm laughing because it's just been this been a, a tough year. I think for me, it's like, you know, I'm a mom of two kids and I'm like surviving through the pandemic with homeschooling well, running my business and publishing books and, and all that, to me, that was, that was a really new challenge for me. I have not necessarily taken on a lot of other new sort of hobbies or activities, you know, but it's just, for me, it's really the opportunity to practice what I teach and preach from a work perspective in the home as well, because I, especially with my children and we had a lot more time together, you know, they usually are at school for part of the day they're right now, they're seven and 10.
Katie Anderson (34m 6s):
So they are, they're quite young and figuring out how to also stay present and grounded and balanced for myself and still, you know, all, all, all of these things that happen in a sort of chaotic business environment to how did I do that across all spheres of my life? And so I would say this year has been a real opportunity to practice all of the leadership and coaching skills that I bring forward in my professional life to also manage across my, my personal life as well.
Mark Graban (34m 39s):
So, yeah, so they're, they're, they're, these are situations that, that you and many other people were thrust into as opposed to choosing to take on some sort of new skill or hobby or practice. But I love the way how you, you, you, you, you kind of point out though, given those circumstances, you still had opportunities to, if you will practice what you
Katie Anderson (34m 59s):
Oh, absolutely. I think some of my, I know that some of my best opportunities for practice are in engaging with my family because, and, and so I, I do what I, what I, I should demonstrate to others or I advocate, which is taking an intention pause, and like reminding myself, like, what's my role in this moment? How do I want to be, who do I want to, how do I want to really want to be showing up? What impact do I want to have? And then RMI is how I'm behaving really in line with that. And it can help just slow down and like, remind me, like, yeah, actually right now, I want to lean into being with my kids and saying, yes, and like, I can say no to work right now, or right now work's more important.
Katie Anderson (35m 38s):
Or, you know, I was picking my son up from the airport. He spent a week with his grandparents in the Midwest, and I found myself as starting to ask closed, ended questions like you, did you do, did you do that at camp? And I had to remind myself, I want to hear what he has to say, ask open-ended questions. So the very same thing that I teach all the time, you know, this shows how ingrained our habits are. Right. I had to like reframe and say, okay, yep. And really work on those, what and how questions. And we had a more enriched conversation. So it's opportunities for us all and somebody is calling me that, and I darn it. I shut down everything. And then FaceTime still is connected to my computer.
Katie Anderson (36m 22s):
So, sorry. Now we have my recent favorite mistake. Yeah.
Mark Graban (36m 28s):
Well, so yeah, so again, and it's okay, Katie, because you're one of the themes of, you know, when you and Mr. Yoshino were on my favorite mistake, that podcast, and we talk about pie mistakes. So one of the underlying themes of the podcast is we all make mistakes. And so here's an opportunity, like, what was I going to do? Get upset with you because your phone that wasn't even your phone, it was your, your FaceTime making a noise. These things happen. So sorry for the listeners, if that jolted anybody. Yeah. But we all have recent mistakes. I mean, I, I clicked and, and there's a reason why, you know, we try to join things like this 15 minutes early before going live, whether it's a webinar or, or this, I had clicked the link to go into the restream live studio.
Mark Graban (37m 17s):
And I thought, where's Katie. And I started to reach for my phone. I was about to text Katie and say, Hey, do you have the right link? And she had already texted me three minutes previous. So it says, waiting for host while it was completely my mistake, like Katie had clicked, clicked on the correct link that I had sent to her. I made the mistake of going into the general live studio instead of, I guess the live studio for the scheduled event was different. So, you know, there's things, things happen. And you know, I'm not going to repeat that mistake. I've learned from it, but with the FaceTime thing, I've completely disabled that through my computer and through my iPad, because I don't that, to me, that's not a compelling feature.
Mark Graban (37m 57s):
Like to me, that's an annoyance. It's not a bug because it's intentional, but I don't like that feature of, you know, all my devices making noise when a phone call.
Katie Anderson (38m 6s):
Yeah. No, I agree with you. I'll be talking with you offline about how to disable this feature so we can do some study adjusts for next time
Mark Graban (38m 15s):
And as a, a diligent person and as a, a lean thinker who practices what she preaches. I know that that noise, that sound won't interrupt. Any future live streams or webinars
Katie Anderson (38m 28s):
Or anything like that. No, I shut everything else down too. I just hate how it's all, you can't act like it was shut down, but it's created an automatic anyway, we we'll we'll we'll we'll move back. We'll move on from, I think
Mark Graban (38m 41s):
We've we've contained. Well, actually, so we had talked about problem solving and quote unquote containment. Did you click the, do not disturb within the math? That might be a short-term containment in case somebody else calls you, but
Katie Anderson (38m 55s):
I'll, I'll get the, I'll get the, I'll get the tutorial from you once we're done. Okay.
Mark Graban (39m 0s):
All right. So we're gonna, we're gonna move forward a little bit. I want to kind of explore a couple of questions. So in episode 419 with Allison Greco, sort of have this idea that came to me for a segment. I don't know if we'll do this every episode, but we'll, we'll go through it today. I called the segment. Best thing, worst thing where we explore on, on some topic or theme, or we've got a couple here, what's the best thing about such and such. And what's the worst thing about such and such. So Katie, we've talked about writing and publishing a book on your, through your own publishing company.
Mark Graban (39m 41s):
First off, what's the best thing about writing and publishing a book?
Katie Anderson (39m 46s):
The best thing for me in my, my perspective is the opportunity to learn and reflect really deeply on a topic and to I'm I'm quiet. Cause like it's a, it's a, it's a big learning experience, but to write a book requires, you know, this is 80,000 words, requires a lot of processing and reflection and being willing to throw out things you've written. And to actually, you know, someone warned me that we'd write the book twice, you know, the first version and the second and when that's totally true, sadly, but it was, it was true.
Katie Anderson (40m 29s):
The, the, I feel like I learned so much more deeply with having to put, create a perspective, figure out a way to weave a compelling, you know, narrative. And so I've, I've learned so much. And so to me, that's the best, that's the best thing. Well, I guess twofold, like the opportunity for learning for myself and then to have that be something that others can learn from and value as well. Yeah.
Mark Graban (40m 54s):
I mean, I, I, the thought in my head was a similar thing about all of the learning that takes place. Like you feel like, you know, enough about a topic to write a book and I've heard others say the best way to learn about some topic more deeply is to write a book because you, like, let's say it was my book measures of success and the process behavior chart methodology. I knew it. I thought, well enough to teach it and to write, but then I dug deeper and I learned more. And then I learned more about how to teach it, like getting feedback from early readers. And so I don't only if this was your worst thing, but this idea of having go reread what you've written and throwing or putting stuff aside, because you think like, well, that's good, but it doesn't fit the flow.
Mark Graban (41m 42s):
Maybe it doesn't fit anywhere. Was, was that editing or self evaluation or self-criticism the worst thing? Or was it something else?
Katie Anderson (41m 51s):
You know, for me, it's hard to say the worst thing. I think it's just part of the process was feeling stuck at the sort of that juncture. I had a, I had a vision for how I was going to structure the book originally when we started, we started with interviews and then I was like, okay, well, we're going to write, it was going to be based on different leadership topics. I ex I write about this at the beginning of the book, you know, so each chapter would be like a leadership topic and I, and then I was starting to write, and then I was getting really stuck at being able to stories and experiences don't fit neatly under like one sort of one lesson, if you, you know, the small vignette perhaps, and then, and figuring out how to write that way. And I have, so I was trained as an academic writer.
Katie Anderson (42m 33s):
I, my, my first career was as a researcher and academic researcher. I wrote academic papers published that way, you know, have a master's thesis. And so I also had to unlearn some of my more formal writing, writing my blog and articles that way, I feel like I had found my narrative voice, but I really had to lean into that as, as well. But yes, I think the worst part was the gosh, it, at the very end, the tedious editing in just reading and rereading. I remember just last June in 2020, just reading manuscript after manuscript, like your eyes start to glaze over because the creativity sort of is lost at that point.
Katie Anderson (43m 16s):
But I, I re I think there were, I guess the two hardest things for me was coming across that barrier. But when I released and found the narrative structure between the, using the concept of the metaphor of weaving of the warp and the weft, the known and the discovered, and then really leaning into the narrative as a chronological narrative, rather than leadership stories, and then just the tedious worst part was the, it was the proofreading and final editing, which as we've already discussed today, still resulted in, you know, small areas making their way through. But that's just the nature of it.
Mark Graban (43m 52s):
Yeah. One of the other worst things is discovering, like, once you thought those initial publication, typos and defects have been caught, and then three months later, somebody points out another one,
Katie Anderson (44m 3s):
Poor Mary, or narrating your own book and you're reading it and then there'll be a few points. I'll be like, oh, shoot. And then I would pause the recording and highlight. So yes. Yeah. Opportunities abound.
Mark Graban (44m 16s):
Yes. And so the worst thing, and this is where I figured out this framework, best thing, worst thing, worst thing. Isn't always horrible, but it's all things considered worst of some really good things that are happening.
Katie Anderson (44m 31s):
Yeah. Well, it's like, you know, reframe failure, failure is not failure if you can still learn from it. So, but you can still have a failure, but it doesn't have to be the worst thing ever in the world. So it's a framing. Yes.
Mark Graban (44m 45s):
And that other calling that other podcasts, my favorite learning opportunity doesn't have it. No,
Katie Anderson (44m 50s):
No, no, it's fine. All right. The next best thing.
Mark Graban (44m 53s):
All right. So best thing, worst thing about working in healthcare improvement, when you were doing that, you, you have experiences that I haven't had where you actually worked full time within healthcare organizations. Best thing. Worst thing about working
Katie Anderson (45m 5s):
In health. Yeah. Great. So after my career in academia, which was all based in public health, by the way. So I moved into working in hospitals and healthcare systems and worked internally for almost a decade, doing continuous improvement in healthcare. So my, I would say the best thing is it is so easy to rally around the mission and the people are passionate about really doing good for patients and the it's inspiring mission driven work. And that is absolutely the best thing you feel like you're making a real impact on important, tangible things for people. And I worked at a children's hospital for six years.
Katie Anderson (45m 45s):
And so you really feel that I feel that as well. So absolutely the best thing. And of that,
Mark Graban (45m 52s):
Is there a worst thing that comes to mind?
Katie Anderson (45m 55s):
Well, I think there, when, when I was reflecting on what was the worst thing, I was, I had this vivid memory of me sitting with in the office with the peri-operative business manager when I was working, looking at the peri-operative services and doing a whole multi-year improvement effort and some value stream work in, in peri-operative services. And I was, we were trying to figure out, or I was trying to discover, like, what was the price of different, you know, pieces of equipment and material and supplies. And it was like, there is no price. Like you mean the price that we set or the price that we pay, or the price that we charged by different insurers or the, like the complexity that our insurance and payment system creates.
Katie Anderson (46m 45s):
And healthcare to me is the worst because it obscures obstacle. I got to get a tongue twist, but, you know, we can't, there's no clarity on what things cost, what value is ha. And so there is no sense of… it makes it very hard. And there isn't a lot of equity as well around that. And so I think that that is one of the most challenging and worst aspects of the healthcare system and trying to do improvement in health care.
Mark Graban (47m 21s):
We could do a whole series with different guests from different countries. Best thing, worst thing about your country's healthcare system, because that would bring out there's, there's always something. Yeah. It's a best thing or worst thing us included. All right. So one other best thing, worst thing about being active on LinkedIn.
Katie Anderson (47m 42s):
Oh, that's a good, so the best thing is the community that's developed. And I love just connecting with so many people around the world and being able to share ideas. And I learned so much, you know, some people who I know who had only recently joined in LinkedIn, they like thought, oh, it's just for, if you're looking for, you know, a new job, it realize it's actually this amazing community for thought leadership thought partnership and learning together. And so to me, that's the best thing about being active on LinkedIn and the community it's developed. Is there a worst thing? I think it's the same as worst thing across any social media platform is that not everyone leads with kindness and that some people's intention is to put people down or to be mean or to call out.
Katie Anderson (48m 31s):
And I, I'm not saying that we can't disagree or have different perspectives. I think that's actually a really important, but how do you do that in a respectful way with good intent and align your actions with that? And so I think there are some people who perhaps, or I know not just perhaps who, who don't do that. And so I think that's a negative across all social media.
Mark Graban (48m 52s):
There are, yeah, there are, there are ways to disagree kindly. And one thing I think is the worst thing of social media is when people end up taking the stance that says, basically, nobody else understands this, but me. I'm like, that's not a good look, whether that's being said directly, or even sometimes being implied.
Katie Anderson (49m 11s):
Yeah. Well that shows a lot about who they are as well. So yeah,
Mark Graban (49m 17s):
So these things happen sometimes on social media, but moving on to one, I'm going to throw one other one at you that I didn't give you a heads up on advance. What was the best thing? Worst thing about living in Japan full-time as American.
Katie Anderson (49m 31s):
Oh my gosh. The best thing there's so many best things there's there are. I mean, I really, I love, I love Japan. It's been really sad for me. Well, I've sad for all of us across the pandemic. I, I really miss being there, the food, the culture, all that, the unexpected best thing though, was the riding an electric bicycle called the mamachari around Tokyo as my main form of transportation. I was not expecting that to be part of my experience. And it was the light, I'm a big cyclist and it was delightful to be able to really access the city on electric bike and had, you know, seat in the front and seen the back from my young children who are one in four at the time.
Katie Anderson (50m 14s):
And it was just, it was so much fun. And when we returned to the United States, I actually really did not. The one thing I, one thing I was really not looking forward to is like driving in my car just a mile to go somewhere. And we actually bought a different type of electric that was more California suited with a big cargo on the back that my kids could hop in and I still ride it to this day. And I love it. So electric bicycle commuting in Tokyo is my unexpected best thing about living in Japan.
Mark Graban (50m 41s):
And was there a worst thing? Like I'm thinking, I'm not telling you what you're, I I'm thinking of a, a gelato story. I don't know if that's the one that comes to mind for you, but what's your worst.
Katie Anderson (50m 53s):
I can tell that story. I wouldn't call that the worst, the worst thing. Oh, I mean, they're, they're all these like small, small, small little things. Gosh, I don't even know what I would consider the worst thing, but I'll tell the gelato store. I mean, I think there was, I think it's more just like challenges in, you know, with, with any situation I've lived in many other countries, you know, I got my master's degree overseas and lived in a few other countries as exchange student and, and working. But this is just, you know, your different expectations from a cultural perspective. And I think it was like our first month in, in Japan, I went to go to a gelato store and I wanted to take the flavors to go.
Katie Anderson (51m 34s):
But if you had two flavors in the same cup, you could not get a lid. You can only get a lid if you had one flavor. And they actually, yeah, I have this on my blog. I have the pictures, but you know, it, they hadn't even had a little, you know, visual symbol that had a picture of two different flavors, no lid. And so I think it would be those learning to navigate the differences and cultural expectations. And, you know, we, as Americans are used to a lot of customizing, oh, you and I have talked about this on a past podcast. Like we're, we're used to a lot of customization and that, that we equate with sort of customer service. While in Japan, they have like wonderful customer service. They treat you so respectfully and so nicely, but it's really not customized.
Katie Anderson (52m 16s):
You get what you get and how they've defined it. And so it's just, and it's very consistent that way. Whereas American service is very inconsistent, but highly customizable. So it's just a, I wouldn't call that the worst thing though. Cause that's just a natural living apart off to come back with you on that one.
Mark Graban (52m 31s):
Okay. Maybe we will record some bonus content sometime I will. We'll make sure there's a link to Katie's blog post about the gelato. You can see the pictures there. We'll put that in the show notes. So before we wrap up and again, our guest has been Katie Anderson, first birthday anniversary, tomorrow of her book, learning to lead, leading to learn. There's also a companion workbook available and the new audio book is going to be released tomorrow. How can people, where can they buy the audio book if they want to do
Katie Anderson (53m 5s):
So, if you can go to the book's website has links to everything which is learningtoleadleadingtolearn.com. You also, the book in print and ebook and audio is all available through links on Amazon, in your country, as well as if you go to audible in iTunes, it's available as well. And again, remember the Kindle sale will be happening if you're listening right. When this is published July 14th, 15th and 16th of 2021. So, and then you can also find more information at my website, which is KBJanderson.com. So yeah, I'm excited. And tomorrow for those of you follow me, I'll be filling in the eye of this little Daruma, which was for the audio book release.
Katie Anderson (53m 50s):
So I'm excited for fulfilling and completing another goal
Mark Graban (53m 54s):
For those who are just listening. That's a very shiny, if not blinging gold, reflective to Ruma, right?
Katie Anderson (54m 1s):
It is. And so it actually is, was originally silver. It's starting to look a little gilded, but I got this in a, in a, when I first was starting my Daruma collection in 2015 and I bought this little guy at a bookstore in Roppongi near my, where I was living at and a really great Starbucks there. I hope it's still there. And yeah, so I was wait as he was waiting for a good goal. And so I assigned the audio book release to him. So yeah, it's, it's, it's the shiniest drama in all my collection.
Mark Graban (54m 33s):
Cool. We do have a question that came in from the audience from Nikki. She says, my son started studies on Japanese language and culture and plans on studying abroad in two years. What can you say about school academic standards? I'm going to be studying marketing and business administration. I know your, your exposure was lower, lower grades of education. And if you have any thoughts on the education system or where Nikki might find some resources and information.
Katie Anderson (55m 5s):
Yeah. I'm sorry, Nikki. I don't, I'm not really the best place to answer that question. I don't really have any experience with the higher education system in Japan, but I know there are some great resources out there, but really excited that he's going to be studying in Japan. I know he's going to have an amazing experience. You should definitely go visit
Mark Graban (55m 23s):
Well, look forward to borders and travel being reopened. I know, I know I am very much looking forward to getting back to Japan at some point, I know they're going through yet another wave of, of COVID. And we think the Summer Olympics at this recording, the uSmmer Olympics are still going on with a lot of restrictions and cautions in place. So we, I know we both want the best for Japan and others around the world who are still struggling with
Katie Anderson (55m 53s):
COVID. Yes, for sure. And, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm hoping that next year I can lead my Japan study trips again, in may in October, I have, I have some new dates, but again, we have to see how the pandemic evolves and global health, so top priority, and we'll, we'll, we'll eventually see each other in person and be able to travel again.
Mark Graban (56m 13s):
So one of the things I wanted to ask you about Katie, you have the opportunity through zoom and other platforms to do a lot of coaching. You've been doing this during the, and I think some of that was even going on beforehand. Can you talk about some of the different coaching approaches? I know you and Karyn Ross have collaborated on what we call the it's the, the, the K2C2.
Katie Anderson (56m 36s):
Yes. Yeah. Katie and Karyn's or Karyn and Katie's coaching communities, which we haven't done for about six months, but Karyn's been working on her new book. And so we're going to, well, we'll start up again soon with that. Yeah, no, it's been great. Karyn and I started those coaching communities, even before the pandemic. It was a really great experience to be doing, and I I'd done remote coaching as well, but to really be developing communities remotely, I felt like we were able to really do so much more last year in supporting people and even about how to, how to move through the pandemic and how to also learn how to do remote coaching and facilitation.
Katie Anderson (57m 17s):
And I've had some of my own programs as well. What I've built around the book called the leading to learn accelerator, which is bringing in concepts of the book in my own coaching practices and more so it's been a, but we all have to, I definitely had to learn and pivot. I remember the very first time I did like a workshop full, like a four hour workshop on online. I was like, realized that, wait, I need to do some things slightly differently. So it's, it's been a good learning. Oh, maybe that was the thing I learned new this year was how to really, how to facilitate more effective remote learning experiences. How do you take an in-person experience still have experiential elements and really make that in a positive way for people to learn from everyone's, you know, home office or wherever they're located.
Katie Anderson (58m 1s):
Mark Graban (58m 2s):
And then you've got something else called the learning to lead accelerator. Can you tell the audience a little bit about that?
Katie Anderson (58m 8s):
Yeah. And I'm excited. I, I led this in four individuals to join the program in February and March of this last year. And I'll be offering it again later this fall. And I've actually been bringing it in in-house to a few organizations where it's a combination of taking the stories from learning to lead, leading to learn. And then also going through a journey of applying the practices and principles in their own lives, bringing in elements of what I coach and teach in my, in my coaching practices with organizations and individuals, and so really deepening their experience. And they, they use the workbook as well in that. And that's been, that was great. We had leaders from 20 countries or 20 leaders from like 10 different countries in it.
Katie Anderson (58m 50s):
And so it was really exciting and I'm, I'm doing some PDCA right now, PTSA on it and looking forward to launching it again this fall. So if you're interested, reach out to me and let me know, and I can send you some more information when we have that ready.
Mark Graban (59m 5s):
All right. Well, great. And the book website again, is learning to lead, leading to learn.com, correct? Yes.
Katie Anderson (59m 12s):
Just the same name as the book learning to lead, leading to learn.com. And my website is KBJanderson.com. And you can also of course, reach out to me on LinkedIn and Twitter. And now I have my YouTube channel too. So lots of good stuff.
Mark Graban (59m 27s):
Yeah. I hope everyone will go check it out. Congratulations again, on the birthday anniversary, I'm going to call it that now the birthday versary of the book, learning to lead, leading to learn, congratulations on the launch, the production and the release tomorrow of the audio book. I hope that goes really well. I hope people will check that out. If they've been listening to the podcast, you can get more of Katie directly into your ears in audio book format a little bit from John Shook as well, a little bit from Isao Yoshino as well.
Katie Anderson (59m 57s):
Yeah. Thank you so much, Mark. It's always a pleasure and honor to talk with you. And I appreciate all the support you've provided to me as well as an author and publisher and, and more and a friend. So thank you.
Mark Graban (1h 0m 13s):
Well, thank you, Katie. Congratulations on everything. Thank you for doing the high wire act. That is a stream today. I appreciate you doing that and being a guest
Katie Anderson (1h 0m 21s):
Yet again, so fun. Great. Thanks Mark. And thanks everyone. I look forward to connecting.
Mark Graban (1h 0m 26s):
Thank you everybody for watching or for listening, you can find show notes for today's episode leanblog.org/420. If it's your first time listening to the podcast, please do follow or subscribe. And your favorite podcast app, and you felt like the episode, please rate or review the podcast. Please share the episode with a friend or a colleague. So thanks again. We'll see you next time. Thanks again to Katie Anderson for being here today. Again, congratulations to her on one year of the book being out and congratulations on the release of the audio book, to learn more, to find links for all of that, including the short term three-day Kindle book sale, you can go to the show notes online
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