Joining me for Episode #239 is Pascal Dennis, somebody I really respect and have learned a lot from over the years… I'd gladly call him “sensei” (although he and I agree that's not a term one should bestow upon themselves… see his blog post).
I'm very happy to have him as a guest again for what is just his second time (I thought it had been more frequent). In Episode 96, we talked about his book The Remedy. Today, we are talking about the new third edition of his book Lean Production Simplified.
Key topics discussed:
- What's new in the 3rd edition, including more healthcare and service-sector examples
- Translating Lean concepts like Jidoka and standardized work beyond the factory floor
- Mental models: how leaders' assumptions shape improvement and culture
- Daily accountability as a process for learning, not punishment
- Applying Lean in HR, IT, and design teams by redefining “value” for internal customers
- The role of humility, coaching, and “drip-drip” leadership in changing habits
- How accountability cascades through teams, departments, and executives
Pascal also previews his novel Andy and Me in the Hospital, part of his Andy & Me series, written for leaders working to bring Lean thinking into healthcare.
Pascal's message is clear: Lean is not just for cars or factories. With the right mindset, it becomes a system of knowledge and practice that helps people in any industry solve problems, create value, and grow together.
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Video of Pascal Dennis
Transcript
Introduction
Announcer:
Welcome to the Lean Blog Podcast. Visit our website at www.leanblog.org. Now, here's your host, Mark Graban.
Mark Graban:
Hi, this is Mark Graban. Welcome to episode 239 of the podcast for January 18, 2016. My guest today is Pascal Dennis, and I'm honestly quite surprised he's only been a guest once before. I thought it had been more than that. If you go back to episode 96, we were talking about one of his previous books, The Remedy, and you can find that episode by going to leanblog.org/96.
Today we're going to be talking about his excellent book, Lean Production Simplified. It is now out in the third edition from Productivity Press, which is the same publisher as my books. His new edition has more examples from healthcare. Pascal and I have been able to do some work together in that realm. Pascal is head of a consulting group called Lean Pathways, and I really recommend Pascal and his work highly. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Here is Pascal.
Thanks for being a guest again on the podcast.
Pascal Dennis:
Thanks, Mark. It's always a pleasure. Looking forward to a good discussion.
Interview with Pascal Dennis
Mark Graban:
Yeah, likewise. So we're here today primarily to talk about your new book, Lean Production Simplified–or it's a new third edition. It's been a favorite book of mine going back to the original edition. Your background, of course, is at Toyota, and I think the book is just very, very clear and a well-grounded summary of what Lean is.
Maybe first, for people who might not be familiar with you, I should ask you to talk a little bit about your background and experience, and then talk about the third edition of the book, if you would.
Pascal Dennis:
Yeah, I'm happy to. Like you, I'm a professional engineer. I studied chemical engineering, and my initial work was in health, safety, and environmental engineering. I joined Toyota Motor Manufacturing in that capacity, and I grew up there professionally and was lucky to have very patient and good-humored senseis that taught me and my colleagues the basics.
About 16 years ago, I launched a coaching team called Lean Pathways, and we've been lucky enough to work in a range of industries, beginning with manufacturing and then branching out into consumer goods and aerospace. Nowadays we do a lot of coaching in areas like healthcare, especially information technology design–more work upstream and downstream of operations, if you will.
So it's been a marvelous journey, a heck of a lot of fun, and I've learned a ton. But as the old adage goes, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. So I'm humbled now, more than I've ever been, I suppose.
Mark Graban:
And so along the way, as you've had different experiences and worked with different people and learned different things, what are some of the main changes for the third edition here?
Pascal Dennis:
Well, as you and I have discussed a number of times, Lean thinking and methods are developing roots now far beyond manufacturing. They're moving upstream and downstream of operations, for example, into sales and marketing, engineering, and design, and downstream into the supply chain, retail, and customer service. They're also moving laterally into totally different industries like healthcare and information technology.
The first and second editions were largely focused on manufacturing–the heartland, if you will, of Lean. But increasingly, as I work with people, it's clear that we need to translate what Deming called the “profound system of knowledge” for our friends and colleagues in these other areas. So the book has many more examples from outside of the factory. For example, what does quality in the process, or Jidoka, mean in a healthcare value stream? What does standardized work mean for a design team or for a surgical team? I'm trying to shine a light on questions like that and help our colleagues in different industries.
Lean Beyond the Factory Floor
Mark Graban:
Because, you know, Lean production, I guess people originally thought of it as being something for the factories, even within the manufacturing enterprise. But as you're saying, as Lean becomes useful or as there's a Lean culture that becomes more than just a factory culture, what are some of the things that are interesting to you in terms of translating Lean from the shop floor to other parts of a manufacturing enterprise or a business?
Pascal Dennis:
I guess what's endlessly fascinating for me are the following kinds of questions: How do core mental models change as you move upstream and downstream of operations? How does the basic definition of value change? As our colleagues listening will attest, Lean begins by defining value. But what is value for, say, an HR team or a marketing team?
So, how do people think? What are their core mental models and assumptions about reality in these new areas? How do they translate value? And then everything else opens up. So if we know what value is, how do we understand what waste is? How do we triage waste? And how do we apply the fundamentals–visual management, standard work, daily accountability–so that we can achieve that value? It's really endlessly fascinating because there are no simple answers, as you know.
Mark Graban:
So in an area like HR, we talk about value being defined by the customer. I'm sure it gets complicated or confusing. HR isn't working directly with external customers who are paying for the product. Do you view it or try to translate it by thinking about HR's internal customers? Or how would you talk through this idea of value with somebody who works in an internal function like that?
Pascal Dennis:
That's a terrific question. Staying with HR, we ask, “What is value for you all?” HR needs to ask its internal customers, to your point, “What do you need from us? How can we help you?” That's one vector. It's kind of like in physics, it's the sum of vector forces. That's one important vector: the internal customer. The second vector is provided by senior management and their definition of purpose. What are we trying to achieve as an organization?
So the HR team needs to reflect and process those two vectors and turn that reflection into a handful of critical few metrics and a simple statement of value. For example, one answer could be–and this is the answer we came up with at Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada in Cambridge–“Value for us in HR is to hire, develop, and motivate smart, flexible people who are always looking for a better way.”
We were able to translate that simple statement of value and purpose into a handful of core metrics, put them up on our daily team board, and invite our customers–in a car plant that would be paint, plastics, assembly, the engine plant–and on a regular basis, check daily accountability and ask them, “How are we doing?” in terms of these key metrics.
It's not an easy process, and all the fundamentals apply. You got to go see. You have to develop strong binary–in other words, okay/not okay–metrics and connections with your customers. You gotta be naked, in a sense. You gotta stand up in these areas and ask, “How are we doing?” Have a target and an actual, and make the reds really clear. Just like our colleagues would do in final line assembly. At the end of the day at the management board, we stood there as a management team, and the final line would tell all its internal customers what the hotspots were, where they met the target, where they didn't. And the suppliers were supposed to come back with answers. So the basics apply, but require finesse and courage, I think. And to achieve what I just described, you have to understand your mental models and deepen and extend them. Go see, take some risks, and have what some people call critical conversations.
Mental Models and Daily Accountability
Mark Graban:
You talk about mindsets and mental models. I think that's one thing you've articulated really clearly. I would invite people to go to your website; there's a series of cards that describe traditional mental models versus Lean mental models. And I think those go to show how Lean is not just about building cars better, but it really is a different way of thinking, managing, and leading.
Let's talk about healthcare a little bit. Is there one of those comparisons of mental models that stands out to you as being most interesting to talk through with people in healthcare?
Pascal Dennis:
Boy, that's a very juicy question, Mark. I spend most of my personal practice, I think, coaching senior executives and working through questions just like that. So some of the mental models that are relevant and require deep reflection… I guess the first one is that in healthcare, senior leaders with the best of intentions tend to view improvement as a result of them. Improvement happens when “people just like me” come up with fiendish plans and everybody else does as they're told. You've seen it, and it's not ill will. These are not bad people. But that's just the way they were taught in medical school or whatever practice they came out of.
So shifting from that image to “improvement occurs when we define purpose in a clear and compelling way, identify what's preventing us from achieving that purpose, develop one-page plans for eliminating those obstacles, and then, most important of all, involve everybody in the organization in fixing their respective part of that overall challenge.” That's just a fundamentally different way of thinking. And again, it's not ill will, it's not a lack of capability, but it takes humility. One of the core themes in Lean Production Simplified and all my books, I think, is the need for personal change and personal growth.
Mark Graban:
When you mentioned a “daily accountability” process, I was going to ask you about some of the old habits. A lot of times people use the word “accountability” to mean different things. In healthcare, accountability has often meant naming, blaming, and shaming. It's very much focused on punishment as opposed to the question you brought up: having a discussion around what's preventing us from accomplishing our goals. So I'd be curious for you to maybe talk through how you would describe accountability or a daily accountability process in a Lean context.
Pascal Dennis:
I'm happy to; another really good question. For me, “daily accountability” means each unit–in the hospital, in the factory, in the design team–has a daily standup meeting wherein we look at target versus actual with respect to our end-of-pipe targets, like throughput or cost, as well as process targets. So if it's a design process, how are we doing at phase one, two, three, and so on?
The questions are:
A) How are we doing?
B) What are our biggest problems?
C) What are our current countermeasures, and are the plans on track?
Underlying that is the understanding that we have really good people, and our people are not the problem. The problem is almost always in the process. So there's a good humor, there's a humanity, and there's what I call a “light touch,” as we had at Toyota. Whereas for other folks that grew up in a different mindset, for them, accountability means just what you said: “Who's responsible, and how will we punish them?”
That's where that one-on-one coaching–and I know you do a lot of coaching yourself–is so vital because a senior leader needs to be vulnerable and open, but they can't do that, given their position, in a big public context. There needs to be one-on-one time to drip-feed those key lessons. And at some point, they have that “eureka” moment, and then everything opens up. But without that kind of discussion, these simple words have very different meanings.
Leadership and Transformation
Mark Graban:
Habits like that are tough to break. Episode 236 was a conversation with John Toussaint, and he was talking about how a lot of hospital CEOs don't know what they don't know. How do you help people see where habitual behaviors can be counterproductive? Do you have any tips for people who are trying to have some of these discussions with executives? You can't be as blunt, I don't think, as to say, “Hey, you're wrong, buddy.”
Pascal Dennis:
I wish it was that easy! I mean, occasionally I call it “showing the sword.” I come out of a Japanese and martial arts tradition, so I think of things in terms of swords. So occasionally you show the sword and say, “Look, buddy…” but in private and respectfully.
That's such a critical point. How does any person change their thinking? It has to be through practical experience and repetition. So I call it drip, drip, drip. In my coaching, we have lots of “go see,” lots of repetition in different forms. So it's slightly different, slightly fresh repetition in terms of visiting other workplaces, talking with peers that have been through the journey, and a lot of reading. These are very smart people. So I regularly will highlight things like, “Look, there's a piece in HBR about how the brain is structured and what it means with respect to visual management.”
And over time–you know the old marketing adage, you got to hear it 17 times–it's probably not far off. Having said that, it's also important to develop a personal relationship and trust, so that the senior leader knows, “I can trust this person. Mark has my back, and he's trying to help me become a better leader.” And finally, having practical pilots that generate results. I think that's very important.
Mark Graban:
What you're describing, within teams, also cascades at different levels of the organization. I think I've heard you describe this as sort of a “fractal” process. Can you talk about how that accountability is modeled at different levels?
Pascal Dennis:
So we have normally the management system I conceive of as having at least three levels. Level one being the frontline daily team huddle. Level two is the people that they report to, so in a hospital, it would be directors and senior managers. And then level three would be senior management. The accountability process looks something like this at each level, although the frequency of the check varies as you go up.
So in a hospital, let's say we're the blood bank team. We need a daily check, a daily accountability, based on a good connection with our customers. So who's the customer? Well, it's clearly the OR and ED, among others. What do you need from us? “Well, we need this mix of blood plasma, that volume, this turnaround time. We need you to meet national quality and safety standards.” Okay, got it.
Now let's boil those down into a handful of metrics, and at the beginning of the day, let's stand up as a team and see what happened last week, what's going to happen this week, what are the watch-outs, and what are the biggest problems. And we stand up and say, “We're okay,” or “We're not okay. Here are the top problems, here's the countermeasure, and here's the status of the countermeasure plan.”
A similar process happens at level two and level three, with a number of subtleties. So level two, for example, usually we check less frequently because we're looking more at flow problems. Maybe we meet twice a week. And at senior leadership, again, because it's a big team, we probably won't be checking every day, but we certainly would be checking once a month or so. So you build this system of connected checking and accountability, informed by our core mental models: we know we got good people, we know that the problem is almost always in the process, we know that problems are telling us where the system is broken, so problems are golden, etc. And then you have a chance. You're in the game.
The New Edition and Beyond
Mark Graban:
Let's talk a little bit more specifically about the book again. It's Lean Production Simplified, the new third edition. Who would you say the book is written for?
Pascal Dennis:
Well, it's written for leaders at all levels–frontline, middle-level leaders, senior leaders. One of the additions is study questions at the end of each chapter. So my image is that a team leader in any industry might take their team members through a chapter and then they have a study group. It's meant to be a practical daily reference. I like to see copies of it on the desk of the lab technician or the maintenance tech or in somebody's cubicle in the IT or engineering department. And I like to see it with scribbles and notes in the margins and so on. So it's written as a practical guide for regular people to pull on whatever they need.
Mark Graban:
How do you see people translating the book into action in the organization?
Pascal Dennis:
I've thought a lot about that. Some of the things that I found to be helpful–and it's kind of nerdy, but it works–is a book club. We have a book club, and we read a chapter a week and maybe have lunch together and we talk about the questions at the end of the chapter. Another common use is what I call “Lunch and Learns.”
So I'm a team leader in a laboratory, and part of my goal this year is to level up our team's knowledge of the fundamentals. So we'll do a Lunch and Learn on Chapter Four, “Quality in the Process.” Part of the Lunch and Learn is a short lesson, and then we go out and take a walk to different parts of our lab and we identify what kind of embedded tests we currently have in our process. What are the biggest risks? For example, labeling is a big one. Mislabeling has potentially catastrophic consequences. Let's all take a walk and assess the robustness of our current process based on what we've just learned. Activities like that make the concept real.
Mark Graban:
Before we wrap up, the 3rd edition is available now. Can you give a bit of a preview or a teaser of a new book that's going to be available here sometime in 2016?
Pascal Dennis:
Yeah, I just finished the third installment in the adventures of Tom Pappas and Andy Saito. It's called Andy and Me in the Hospital. If you're familiar with Andy and Me, Tom is a plant manager with problems and Andy is his Japanese sensei. In the latest adventure, they are pulled into a major New York hospital that has real problems, and all hell breaks loose and the boys figure it out. Hopefully, people will like it. It's written for all our friends and colleagues that are fighting the good fight in healthcare. I hope they like it and hope that it's helpful.
Mark Graban:
And I imagine people could probably just jump in and read that book, or while they're waiting, they could read the original Andy and Me and then The Remedy, which was the second book in that series, correct?
Pascal Dennis:
Yeah, that certainly would prime them. And hopefully, it's an easy, fun read. It's based on real people that I've worked with for years. It's fiction, of course, but the situations are not.
Mark Graban:
What are some other ways that people can find you online, Pascal?
Pascal Dennis:
Well, we encourage people to check out blogs. I always say check out the Lean blog, don't miss one! We also have a blog at Lean Pathways, so leansystems.org/blog. There's a LinkedIn Lean Pathways Executive Forum, please feel free to join. And of course, the Amazon page and tons of YouTube videos.
Conclusion
Mark Graban:
Well, thank you again. Our guest has been Pascal Dennis. Pascal, it's really been a pleasure talking to you and catching up and hearing some of your thoughts. So thanks again for being a guest.
Pascal Dennis:
My pleasure. Thank you so much, and have a wonderful Christmas, folks. Have a great happy holiday, and here's to a prosperous 2016.
Mark Graban:
Great, and same to you and to yours. Thanks, Pascal.
Pascal Dennis:
Thanks. Bye for now.
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