Jim Womack on Gemba Walks, Lean Leadership, and Lessons for Healthcare

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In Episode #116 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast, Mark Graban talks with Jim Womack, founder and former Chairman of the Lean Enterprise Institute. Now serving as Senior Advisor, Jim joined the show to discuss his then-new book Gemba Walks, a collection of essays drawn from a decade of his writing and reflection on Lean practice.

Jim explains how a true gemba walk is different from the old idea of “management by walking around.” Rather than casual check-ins, a gemba walk is a disciplined way of seeing value streams end-to-end, understanding purpose, and engaging with people doing the work. He shares stories from memorable walks, including visits to historic manufacturing sites and healthcare organizations, and reflects on both the promise and the challenges of Lean in healthcare.

The conversation also touches on the role of leaders, the importance of aligning vertical structures with horizontal value creation, and why lasting change requires senior executives to change their own behaviors–not just launch “programs.” Whether you're new to Lean or a seasoned practitioner, Jim's insights provide timeless lessons on leadership, learning, and building organizations that truly create value.

For a link to the episode, refer people to  www.leanblog.org/116.

We recorded two podcasts in the same sitting. Part two is Episode #118, with Jim's thoughts on recent developments with GM and Toyota, his reflections on the word “lean,” his thoughts on six sigma, and more.

For earlier episodes, visit the main Podcast page, which includes information on how to subscribe via RSS or via Apple Podcasts.

Key Quotes

“What you always find at the end of a gemba walk is that your baby is really ugly. And by the way, it's not anybody's fault–it's that processes run horizontally while organizations are vertical.”

“Writing is addictive. It's a drug that has no high, there is no rush–but it's completely addictive.”

“The world would be a better place if every senior manager had the ability to just go take a look at reality and understand how their organization really creates value.”

“In most organizations–even Lean ones–what is actually happening is often not what's supposed to be happening.”

“Lean thinking may be the only drug left in the arsenal between the unsustainable system we have today and the grim alternatives of denial, rationing, or price controls in healthcare.”

Automated Transcript

Announcer:
Welcome to the Lean Blog Podcast. Visit our website at www.leanblog.org. Now here's your host, Mark Graban.

Mark Graban:
Hi, this is Mark Graban. Welcome to Episode 116 of my podcast for March 22nd, 2011. My guest today is a returning guest, and thankfully, a rather frequent guest over the last couple of years: Jim Womack. Jim is the founder and former chairman of the Lean Enterprise Institute, now serving as senior advisor to the Institute with John Shook taking over as CEO.

We're going to be talking today about Jim's most recent book, published by LEI, called Gemba Walks. It's a compilation of 100 email newsletters that Jim wrote over about ten years. They've been edited, reframed, re-sequenced, grouped into themes, with some new commentary and essays added. It makes for a really nice little book that you can pick up and read in parts.

We'll be talking about the book, about what gemba walks are and how they differ from “management by walking around.” Jim will share some of his most memorable gemba walks, and we'll touch on Lean healthcare and other topics. This is actually the first of two parts: in Part Two (Episode 118), Jim shares his thoughts on GM, Toyota, Six Sigma, and more. You can find all past episodes and subscription info at leanpodcast.org.

Jim, thanks for joining us and taking time to talk today on the podcast.

Jim Womack:
Well, thank you.

Mark Graban:
So let's talk about your most recent book, Gemba Walks. Could you tell the story behind the publication of the book and what's been added to the essays that were previously published?

Jim Womack:
I started this project last fall because I was stepping down as head of LEI. It was a bit of a housecleaning activity. I had written exactly 100 of these e-letters between 2001 and 2010. At first, I thought I would just bundle them up and give them a place to live on the shelf. But as I got into it, I realized this was really a record of how Lean had evolved in the 15 years since Dan Jones and I published Lean Thinking.

There was a lot there. Some of the essays were just “of the moment,” so I threw half of them away and reworked the other 50–what I call a remanufacturing operation. You realize you're never as clear in retrospect as you thought you were when you wrote it. So I edited them, made them easier to read, organized them by themes, and added introductory essays. At the end, I included a section called “Hopeful Hansei” about where the Lean community might go from here.

Mark Graban:
You mentioned your new senior advisor role. What does that entail?

Jim Womack:
What I've been doing for years at LEI is acting as editorial director. I didn't write a lot of LEI books myself–this is really the only one. But I've always been involved in helping others get books, workbooks, videos, and other materials out. That role still needs to be done, and it turns out it may be one of my skills.

I'm also doing more nonprofit talks and events, with AME, SME, and others. Before, I was stretched thin, but now I have more time to stay and talk with people. I'm always interested in what people in the Lean community are working on and what challenges they see. And of course, because writing is addictive, I've already started on my next project–that one's still under wraps.

Mark Graban:
Let's go back to gemba walks themselves. How do they differ from “management by walking around,” as Tom Peters used to describe?

Jim Womack:
Tom Peters popularized “management by walking around,” but to me, that was always vague and short-term. Senior managers walking around to talk with people was supposed to help bypass the “frozen middle,” but it didn't really lead anywhere.

A gemba walk, as I've practiced it, is different. You look at a value stream end-to-end. Often it's easiest to start in fulfillment–order to delivery–but you can also look at product development or after-sales service. You pick a product family, start at the beginning, and follow it all the way through.

The key is to see what's really happening, because in most organizations–even Lean ones–what is happening is often not what's supposed to be happening. In Lean organizations, problems are visible and countermeasures are applied. In others, problems are hidden and workarounds become the norm.

So on a gemba walk, you talk to the people doing the work. You ask about purpose. You look at whether they have a way to solve problems, whether they're engaged, whether they're being trained to improve the process. By the end, you can usually tell how the whole organization is functioning just by looking closely at one value stream.

Every manager–senior, middle, or frontline–should be doing this. But in practice, the “not doing it” is still stronger than the “doing it.”

Mark Graban:
Looking back on your walks, were there any particularly unusual or striking ones?

Jim Womack:
One that stands out was my visit to the Highland Park plant in Michigan, where Henry Ford developed modern mass production. Between 1908 and 1915, it was the most creative industrial site in the world. But now it's largely abandoned, with just one employee at the gate. It's like the neutron bomb went off–the building is still there, but the life is gone. That was a haunting walk, seeing the birthplace of Lean production essentially forgotten.

Another category of haunting walks has been in healthcare. I've been in operating rooms and other care settings where incredibly skilled people are working right at the edge of science, but the processes are completely out of control and the management system is weak. Those walks really drive home how high the stakes are when it's people's lives in the balance.

Mark Graban:
I know you've walked the gemba many times with John Toussaint at ThedaCare. In the book you wrote that we're still in the “early days” of Lean healthcare. Could you share more reflections?

Jim Womack:
Yes–ThedaCare is further along than most, but healthcare overall is still very early. The culture is rooted in craft traditions–doctors do things the way their mentors taught them, not necessarily based on outcomes. Often there's no outcomes data at all, which makes it hard to have repeatability.

Nurses are the ones who think about process, but they've never been given real training or authority. Meanwhile, senior managers often come from outside healthcare with MBAs and focus mainly on cutting costs, without really understanding value creation at the bedside. So you get a system that's misaligned and very hard to change.

That said, the system is “sick” enough that people recognize change is necessary. Governments are running out of money, and denial of care is the default if nothing else changes. Lean thinking may be the only real alternative left to create better outcomes, better experiences, and lower costs. The situation is challenging, but also full of potential.

Mark Graban:
One thing you said at the Lean Transformation Summit was that CEOs should not “start a Lean program,” but instead change their own thinking first. Could you elaborate?

Jim Womack:
Absolutely. I shudder when I hear about a “program.” Programs are usually staff-driven, with budgets and stretch goals, but disconnected from what senior leaders actually do. That creates activity, but not sustainable change.

The battle is won or lost on whether managers–especially senior managers–change their own behavior. Instead of shouting, demanding, or pretending to solve problems they don't understand, they need to go to the gemba, see how value is created, and recognize the misfit between horizontal processes and vertical organizations.

Thinking horizontally in a vertical organization is the most fundamental issue in management. And it requires leaders not just to think differently, but to act differently every day.

Mark Graban:
Jim, thanks for taking time to talk about the book and for sharing these reflections.

Jim Womack:
Sure. And just to say–I'm not through walking. My goal is to visit about one organization a week, and so far in 2011 I've kept up that pace. Walking the gemba is what I love to do, and I hope others in the Lean community keep walking too.

Mark Graban:
Is there a Lean “bat signal” people can use to invite you to walk their gemba?

Jim Womack:
(Laughs) I hadn't thought about a bat signal, but if anyone contacts LEI, we can talk. This isn't consulting–it's education by example. What you always find at the end of a walk is that your baby is really ugly. And it's not anyone's fault–it's that processes run horizontally while organizations are vertical. The question is, what do you plan to do about it? If you align the two, you'll get better results.

So yes, I'm available if people want to walk together.

Mark Graban:
Thanks a lot, Jim.

Jim Womack:
Sure. Bye now.

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