Here is LeanBlog Podcast #64, again with Jamie Flinchbaugh, co-author of The Hitchhiker's Guide to Lean: Lessons from the Road.
Jamie explains the difference between coaching people toward a solution versus coaching them in the method, and why both approaches have their place depending on the situation. We discuss practical frameworks for coaching, including how standardized work and PDCA cycles can shape effective coaching conversations.
Jamie also shares insights on the challenges of coaching across different levels of an organization–whether with frontline staff, peers, or executives–and the importance of empathy in building real understanding. He outlines how leaders can avoid the trap of seeing coaching as a way to “fix” others, and instead focus on enabling people to find their own answers and achieve sustainable success.
Finally, we explore tools and practices from the Lean Learning Center that support better coaching, such as structured learning aids and leadership development programs. This conversation offers actionable ideas for anyone seeking to strengthen their coaching practice and build a more people-centered Lean culture.
This was also the first attempt at a “video podcast”, this is the audio from that. The video, if desired, can be found here. The video admittedly doesn't add too much to the discussion, but it's an experiment and I'll continue to put audio from the discussions here in the audio podcast series if I do more videos.
For earlier episodes, visit the main Podcast page, which includes information on how to subscribe via RSS or via Apple Podcasts.
Transcript:
Introduction
Announcer:
Welcome to the Lean Blog Podcast. Visit our website at www.leanblog.org. Now, here's your host, Mark Graban.
Mark Graban:
Well, welcome to the first-ever Lean Blog video podcast. My name is Mark Graban, and I'm very happy to have Jamie Flinchbaugh from the Lean Learning Center joining us today.
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
Thank you very much, Mark.
Mark Graban:
Good to have you here. We're going to be talking about the role of coaching in a Lean transformation. So I was wondering if you could explain to us why you think coaching is important and what some of the difference is between coaching people towards a solution and coaching them towards a method.
Coaching the Solution vs. Coaching the Method
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
Yeah, well, I think fundamentally, Lean is about people. So if that's true, then coaching is an important mechanism to help develop the organization. So it's a pretty simple statement, but if you get your arms around “Lean is about people,” then coaching is a core process.
The difference between coaching people towards the solution and the method: the solution is really the idea that the coach has in their head and says, “Here's what I think is the best solution, and I'm going to help you get there by prodding you and probing and asking questions and helping you along to that idea that I think is probably the best one.”
Coaching someone on the method is helping them get to their own conclusion, not your conclusion. It's helping them ask the right questions, helping them observe, helping them do root cause analysis, helping them with a method that they would use to develop their own answer. So a lot of people think they coach–and I'm sure probably 99% of your listeners would say they coach if we asked them–but we have to distinguish the difference between coaching the method and coaching the solution. Both are good, but they are different.
Mark Graban:
Right. So when you say they're both good, I imagine there's kind of a time and a place to coach toward a solution versus coaching the method.
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
Yeah. So it's not that it's a bad way to go; it just is different, and we rely on it too much. So, for example, if you're in a burning building and someone walks up to you and says, “How do I get out?” you don't want to start coaching them on the method by asking, “How would you approach that, and what questions do you need, and what data do you need?” You point them to the door and you help them get out. So there's a right time for both, and we just need to know the difference and know when we should use which.
Mark Graban:
It's probably not a time to step back and start asking the five whys of why the building is on fire. Sometimes you got to just get out and then step back and do the root cause analysis.
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
Absolutely. Contain the problem first and then move on.
Frameworks and Mindset for Coaching
Mark Graban:
So what are some methods or frameworks that you use for doing coaching? What are some practical things that people can do when thinking about how to coach?
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
I think there's probably three components that make up coaching. There's process, so how you actually go through the method. There's the framework or lens that you use, and then there's also the mindset. And the mindset isn't so much the practical part, but it is fundamentally important. As a coach, you need to believe that you're coaching for the other person to be successful. You're not coaching to get them to do what you want them to do. You're coaching to help them get to their own answers and be successful beyond the coaching experience.
Mark Graban:
So when you're coaching, Jamie, are there any particular challenges if you're coaching different levels of the organization–if you're coaching frontline staff or supervisors, or if you're in the situation of maybe trying to coach up within the organization to the executive ranks?
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
Well, in any situation, you have to understand and put yourself in the shoes of the other person. So whether it's someone like me coaching from outside the organization or inside, you always have to understand the perspective of the person. There are different challenges if you're coaching your own direct reports, or you're coaching your peers, or you're coaching up in the organization.
The one that most people start asking lots of questions about and really struggle with is coaching up. They know that they need to get their executive on board or their boss on board, so they want to know how to coach up. And I think that the most important thing comes back to that empathy. It's understanding your boss's position or the executive's position, understanding the situation they're in, and having some empathy for that.
I think there are probably two keys to this. One is a coach has to understand that they're not trying to get the boss to do what they want them to do. That's mistake number one: “I want to fix my boss because he doesn't get it, and I want him to get it because he's getting in my way.” That's not empathy, and that's not coaching for the other person to be successful. So you can't coach very well. You can teach, you can advocate, but you can't coach very well if you're looking at your boss like a barrier or an enemy. And the other thing that people seem to forget is that bosses have bosses, and those are constraints. You have to understand the constraints that your boss is going through if you're going to be a successful coach.
Standardized Work and PDCA in Coaching
Mark Graban:
So when you think about how to coach, is there anything, I guess, from a Lean perspective–any sort of standardized work, if you will–for how to go about setting up a coaching relationship or a coaching moment where you're trying to work with somebody?
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
Well, we believe there is standardized work for how you go about that. And if you think about why we use standardized work and what you're trying to accomplish with it, you want to get a repeatable outcome. So that's one reason to use standardized work. You want to be able to experiment and improve, that's another. You want to be able to deviate when you need to deviate from a known standard.
So standard work gives us consistency and flexibility when used properly. So why would I not want that for how I do coaching? It's really pretty powerful. Now, the reason people resist even thinking about standardized work for coaching conversations is that they start thinking about all the variation they have to put up with. “I don't know what the other person's going to say. I don't know how they're going to act. I don't know what the problem's going to be.” How could I have standardized work? That actually means standardized work is even more important. The argument that people are giving us is, “Well, it's too variable already. I'd rather add more variation to it by not having standard work,” which isn't really a good argument.
Mark Graban:
I guess people might say, “Well, every coachee, every person, every situation is different. So how could you standardize that?” That might be some of the resistance, right?
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
Absolutely. That's basically what it comes down to. And what I think is that you're going to have standard work, and because you can't control the other person, it may only occasionally follow precisely, step by step, how your standard work is laid out. But if you have that standard work, you can keep coming back to it over and over again.
So even if you start in the middle, you still know that you skipped steps one, two, and three. And you know, to follow a standard work, you eventually need to get back to those steps. So it won't be perfect. It's not like putting together a carburetor. But by having that standard work, you can follow those steps a little more cleanly. And when you miss, or when you deviate, or when you have variation, you can react to that much more cleanly.
Mark Graban:
Yeah, and it's interesting you mentioned standardized work, but then this experimental process, and that reminds me of the PDCA (Plan-Do-Check-Act) cycle. Is that something that's beneficial, either thinking about the process for how you're coaching someone at that moment to check and see if the coaching is working? And can you also extend that PDCA to the overall process of coaching itself?
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
Well, coaching is really about learning, right? And so is PDCA. PDCA is a learning cycle fundamentally, and so they fit hand-in-glove very well. The “P” (the Plan) of PDCA is really that coaching conversation, that moment when you're working with someone to figure out the plan.
And we believe the standard work for that coaching conversation involves basically four components.
- First is you need to understand the goals for the person. What's their ideal state, what's their target, what are they trying to accomplish? And even what are the goals for the relationship that they want from you? I think many people start a coaching conversation without asking first, “Would you mind if I did some coaching?” And it's a very freeing conversation to have, to say, “I'd like to coach,” and if they agree to it, then you really can do a whole lot more.
- The second component is current reality. This can be lots of different versions, but it's really understanding what the person has done and what result they've gotten. So simply asking, “What have you tried, and what did you get?” just digging into every opportunity that they've done.
- You also need to brainstorm options. So you need to cover as much ground as possible. And if you're coaching on the method, you want the other person to present every possible idea that they have before you even present your first idea, because you really want to clear their head. You want to get all the ideas out of their head onto the table and then see if they are open to receiving new ideas.
- And then lastly is the action: what are you going to go do, which of those ideas are you going to pick, and even what help might you need along that way? That's the last step of that coaching conversation.
So you've done all that, but all you've done so far is the “Plan” of Plan-Do-Check-Act.
Conclusion
Mark Graban:
Well, if anybody out there watching or listening wants to ask you for some coaching, maybe talk for a minute about what's going on lately at the Lean Learning Center, what types of coaching opportunities or learning opportunities that you have coming up in the near future.
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
Yeah, well, within the topic of coaching, there are actually three things that we've probably done recently that help people. One is as we do coaching inside of organizations, we've really worked with a lot of leaders to learn by doing, by having leaders pick up projects that they own, and we go through and coach them on those projects. This is again a chance to solve real problems but help them learn the method.
We've also developed a tool called Single-Point Lessons, which are really structured content in one-page documents that a coach can use sitting across the table or in an aisle to cover a topic, whether it's 5S or the Five Whys. So it's really a tool to aid coaching as opposed to the sort of “winging it” that coaches might do in trying to convey topics.
And then lastly, we have a course called Leading Lean, which is basically a course for helping develop change agent skills for Lean leaders at different levels of the organization. And coaching is a strong component of that.
Mark Graban:
Okay. And if people want to learn more, they can go to www.leanlearningcenter.com, correct?
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
That's correct. They can find out about pretty much all of that or contact me there as well.
Mark Graban:
Okay. Well, Jamie, thanks for helping break some new ground here on the first video podcast.
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
Very glad to be part of the experiment.
Mark Graban:
Okay, we'll keep working on it, we'll keep PDCA-ing this process, and hopefully we'll do this again soon.
Jamie Flinchbaugh:
Very good. Thank you.
Mark Graban:
All right, thanks.
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