In Episode #176 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast, Mark Graban welcomes back his mentor and frequent guest, Norman Bodek–the man often called the “Godfather of Lean in America.” Norman was instrumental in bringing the works of Shingo, Ohno, and other Japanese pioneers to the English-speaking world. In this conversation, he shares insights from his then-latest book, The Harada Method: The Spirit of Self-Reliance.
Norman explains how he discovered Takashi Harada's approach in Japan and why he believes it represents the “missing piece” in Lean: helping people set meaningful personal goals and develop the self-discipline to achieve them. More than just a productivity system, the Harada Method builds confidence, inspires growth, and fosters a workplace where individuals feel respected and energized. As Norman says, the goal is to create conditions where people say,
“Thank God it's Monday.”
Listeners will hear Norman's reflections on respect for people, continuous learning, and why helping individuals grow ultimately helps companies thrive. He shares stories of Harada's transformation of a struggling Osaka school into a national champion, and explains how this philosophy can be applied anywhere–from classrooms to corporations. This episode is both inspiring and practical, offering a roadmap for leaders who want to unlock the human side of Lean.
Key Quotes:
“Respect for people means listening to them, trusting them, and letting them solve problems.”
“The missing element in Lean has been giving people the chance to pick a goal and become the best in the world at it.”
“How do we get people to say, ‘Thank God it's Monday'? By helping them find a goal they're excited about.”
“It's better to pick the wrong goal than to have no goal at all.”
“If people grow, the company grows. It has to go hand in hand.”
More Info:
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Thanks for listening!
Transcript:
ntroduction
Mark Graban: Hi, this is Mark Graban. Welcome to episode 176 of the podcast. Joining me today is my good friend, Norman Bodek, who has been a guest many times here. Today, we're going to be talking about his latest book, The Harada Method, The Spirit of Self-Reliance.
You can learn more about the book and Norman's various workshops on Kaizen and the Harada Method at his website, PCSPress.com. As always, it's great to hear Norman talk about his interests and what he's learned on his many trips to Japan–more than 70! I hope you enjoy the podcast.
I'm really happy to have a frequent guest back with us. He was a guest in episode number one, and the whole podcast series was originally his idea. Our guest is Norman Bodek. Thanks for being back on the show.
Norman Bodek: Mark, thank you very much for having me. It's always a pleasure.
Mark Graban: It sure is. Did you know that your idea would turn into almost 200 podcasts?
Norman Bodek: Wow, that's just wonderful.
Mark Graban: It goes to show what happens when someone's kind enough to share an idea. I appreciate that.
Norman Bodek: Well, that's my job. My job is to discover the best tools and techniques in the world and spread them. That's what I've done for over 30 years.
The Harada Method: A New Discovery
Mark Graban: You've done a great service for people by spreading the ideas of Kaizen and different types of improvement. Your most recent book, The Harada Method, The Spirit of Self-Reliance, is a new discovery that you made. Can you tell us the story of how you met Mr. Harada and how the book came to be?
Norman Bodek: I'll tell you that in a second, but first, I have to congratulate you on your new book. You're one of my best students. You came here, took the course, and put it into practice. Then you wrote that marvelous book with Joe Swartz.
I've been so lucky in my life. I've never been that bright. I was never a good student and didn't get very good grades, but I've been so lucky to continue to discover the real jewels of management. I've met Shingo, Ohno, and any tool you can think about, I've met the originator and persuaded them to let me publish their work in English. That's my claim to fame.
I published all the things on Lean tools, but something was missing. I was very happy to meet Bungee Tazawa because he taught me the suggestion system. The Japanese suggestion system is totally different from the American one. I love the suggestion system and wish every company would do it. It's so powerful. The average manager says, “If I get a lot of ideas, how do I manage it?” They don't understand that they don't manage it; they let the person manage it with their supervisor, and it works.
In looking for the best things on the human side of Lean, which Toyota calls “Respect for People,” I found something that had been missing. This is where the Harada Method comes in. It gives people the opportunity to pick a goal–to pick something that they want to be the best in the world at.
You see how that works within your company. Instead of people coming every day and doing the same job, how do we get them thrilled to get up on Monday morning and say, “Thank God it's Monday because I'm going to work and do something I'm excited about doing.” That happens when you pick a goal and you are growing towards that goal.
Harada was a track and field coach at a junior high school in Osaka, Japan. He was at the worst school in the city out of 380. His school was the lowest-rated athletically and academically because it was in the slums. But he wouldn't accept it. He studied the best methods and masters, including Stephen Covey. He put together a methodology that completely transformed this school. Within three years, it went from the worst to the best.
How did he do it? How did he get his students to discipline themselves? Your role as a leader is to inspire people to want to be great. I want you to say to yourself, “I really want to be great.” It doesn't matter what you pick; you'll be successful for the rest of your life. That's why I'm excited about the Harada Method.
I found this method from a map that teaches a company how to develop a strategy to become world-class. It's an incredible instrument. All you have to do is send me an email at bodek@pcspress.com, and I'll send you this map.
The map looks at all the world's best techniques across 38 disciplines. The seventh item listed says, “Standard Work.” The next column says, “What is the best technique in the world?” It says, “Day-to-day management.” Then the third column asks, “Who does it the best?” and it said, “Takashi Harada.” I got excited when I started to learn this.
My wife, who is Japanese, found that Harada wrote seven books. We ordered them all. She read them for me, and I became so excited that I picked up the phone and called Harada, telling him I wanted to bring his work to America. He said okay. I got on an airplane with my assistant, Naomi, and we flew to Japan to meet him. I was willing to translate one of his existing books, but he wanted to write a new one.
I asked him if I could co-author it, and that's what I've done for the last two years. I have studied his material, rewritten it, practiced it, and taught it. I now run a certification course where I certify instructors in the Harada Method. I've been to Harada five times to take his workshops so that I know what I'm talking about.
He sent me tons of material, much of which was in English. I'm very excited about it. I feel like I'm the Johnny Appleseed of this new idea. I want to spread it to everybody in America.
I have a client, the CIBC Bank in Canada. One of my contacts, Carmen, had a son, Jonathan, who was 11 years old. I spoke to Jonathan and asked, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” Jonathan said, “I want to be a bone doctor.” Can you imagine an 11-year-old knowing exactly what he wants to be? I did not know what I wanted to be until I was 37.
Core Concepts of the Harada Method
Mark Graban: I think you used the word “inspire,” and that's a great way to look at it. You have to inspire people, whether that means becoming a great factory or a great hospital. You can't force people to change. Inspiring them to want to change is really important. The Harada Method gives a good process to make that happen.
Norman Bodek: I feel that this method is the world's best for day-to-day management to motivate people to change their behavior to be successful in life. It's well thought out and it works.
Some of the missing elements we have to change in America: Tiger Woods, who is probably the most successful athlete in any discipline, has a coach. He has a coach to help him discover a better way to do things. This is the essence of the Harada Method.
Here is a method where you pick a goal, analyze yourself, and establish 64 specific tasks you'll do to attain your goal. You select 10 tasks to do this month, and then maybe one or two to do today. You schedule time today to do at least one new thing that will move you toward your goal. At the end of the day, you analyze yourself: Did I do what I wanted to do? We need that discipline.
What makes this work is that every day you sit with a coach for maybe five to 10 minutes. If you respect your coach, you will do what you want to do. It's as simple as that. The boss tells you your goal, and you work to make a profit for someone else. To me, that's nuts. Yes, a company needs a profit to be sustained, but what kind of a goal is that for people? People should work on their own growth. If they grow, the company grows, and if the company grows correctly, then they make money.
Mark Graban: It all goes hand-in-hand.
Norman Bodek: It's all twisted around. There's so much short-term thinking in America. A leader should set a vision: What kind of company do we want to be the best at? How are we going to serve society in the best way? Then we want people to find roles that will make the corporation successful while also making them individually successful.
We go to school for 13 to 17 years, and then we join a corporation and stop learning. It's crazy. The system has to change if we're going to be competitive with the rest of the world. We can't compete on cheap labor rates. We can only compete with highly skilled Americans who are passionate about pursuing something they love.
It's not easy for people to pick a goal because when you go to school, they never ask you to. I demand that my students pick a goal. It's the first thing we do in class. It's not easy for them, but they all do it, and they start to become passionate. People ask, “What if I pick the wrong goal?” It's better to pick a wrong goal than to have no goal, because you can always change it later. At least you're learning the mechanism of how to attain a goal.
Mark Graban: Is the goal always expressed as “I want to be the best in the world at X,” or just a goal for high achievement?
Norman Bodek: Either one works. I like being the best at something. Why not? If I'm going to do something, why shouldn't I do it the best? I want to be the best Harada teacher outside of Harada in Japan. I work very hard on that. I write every day to improve myself. I should always be growing. That's the great secret.
You can use the Harada Method for a goal like, “I want to attain $400,000 in sales this month.” That's an excellent goal. Then you write down the purpose: “Why do you want to earn $400,000?” You'll make more money, your company will be successful, your family will be happy, your son will be able to go to college, etc. You have a very strong purpose, and the key is that you can attain it.
Mark Graban: The key is breaking it down. Nobody becomes the best overnight.
Norman Bodek: These are 64 tasks that you think you have to do to attain your goal. Say I want to go to the Olympics as a shot-putter six years from now. I'll study what the best shot-putters are doing. If they're shooting 66 meters and I can do 40, I know I have to improve by 26 meters. I begin to learn how to do that in very small steps.
First, I have to believe in myself. Then, I have to be willing to work every day. I have to build up my skills. I have to learn how to turn and twist. I'll study other people's videos. I have to build up my muscles, eat the right vegetables, and take care of myself. This is the key: a well-balanced life.
One of his students, who won a gold medal, was interviewed and asked what she did to win. She said, “I wash dishes at home every night.” What does washing dishes have to do with winning a medal?
Harada would go to their homes. The school teacher goes to your home at least once a year in Japan. He went to her home and saw that her mother was a drunk, there was no father, the place was filthy, and the TV was blaring. He couldn't just tell the mother, “Turn the TV down and don't drink.” But when the child started to do something different, like washing dishes to show her mother that she was interested in sharing and making it a better environment, the environment slowly started to change. This is a simple but powerful process.
The Impact and Spreading the Word
Mark Graban: You're doing a lot of work training people in this method. Can you talk about what you're doing?
Norman Bodek: I do a lot of keynote talks and trainings in companies. I also run a five-day instructor certification course in Portland, Oregon. I do this with very small groups. Last month, I had nine people. One came from Belgium, one from South Africa, and one from Australia. We spent five days together, and I taught them the Harada Method step-by-step. I taught them how to teach it. In class, they get up and teach it to each other, and we critique them to make sure they're doing it right.
It's an amazing process. I'm pretty much committed to just teaching people this great methodology and getting them to understand that they can be a champion. It's not a mystery. You've worked very hard, Mark, to attain the level of expertise you have, and I'm very happy I played a small role in your success.
Mark Graban: You've played a big role, Norman. I've learned a lot from you and appreciate everything. You also taught Joe Swartz, who has done great work with Kaizen in his organization. I know we're both very grateful.
I thought you were pretty focused before on Kaizen and Toyota practices. Is this pretty much all the training you're doing now?
Norman Bodek: I would teach people Quick and Easy Kaizen, but my main thrust is this Harada concept. It's changing people's lives for the better, making them more confident and capable. It gives them a central focus on what they really want to do in their life to be successful. It really works. I would hope your audience would call me. You can always call me and start by reading my new book.
Final Thoughts
Mark Graban: If you go to leanpodcast.org and find the page for this episode, you can find links to Norman's website and how to buy the book. Norman, do you have any final thoughts for the listeners about the Harada Method?
Norman Bodek: The gift I've gotten in my life came to me over 40 years ago from a meditation teacher named Rudy. I only studied for two years because he died in a plane crash, but he planted a very deep seed in me. He said, “Norman, the only thing that you should want in your life is to grow every day. You should ask inside your heart just to grow.”
That's what I do. I ask every day to grow so I can be a better person and a better teacher. It's a privilege to be able to transfer this methodology to others so that they can be successful. I'm now teaching many people to become teachers so this can spread all over America and the world. Mark, it works, and I thank you so much for the privilege of speaking to you and your group. Let's stay in touch.
Mark Graban: All right. Well, thanks, Norman. It's great to talk to you as always, and thanks for sharing your experiences and your passion for the Harada Method today.
Norman Bodek: Thank you.
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Let’s build a culture of continuous improvement and psychological safety—together. If you're a leader aiming for lasting change (not just more projects), I help organizations:
- Engage people at all levels in sustainable improvement
- Shift from fear of mistakes to learning from them
- Apply Lean thinking in practical, people-centered ways
Interested in coaching or a keynote talk? Let’s talk.
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I have already read this book over 5 five times. Each time reading, it gives me new insight and excitement, recall back as same feeling as when I read Deming’s book of out of the Crisis. I started to practice with the forms you sent to me and wrote the diary for a week. Surprisingly, I feel my change since the third day of writing! Now, I am back to the book again and try to work out the details systematically. Urgently need a mentor for myself, and lot of questions, I will bring them to your workshop soon. thanks Norman!
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