Comments on: Change from Inside or Outside of the System http://www.leanblog.org/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-system/ Mark Graban's leanblog.org - Lean Healthcare, Lean Thinking, Lean Manufacturing, Toyota Production System Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:01:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Grant Lindsay http://www.leanblog.org/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-system/#comment-5642 Grant Lindsay Fri, 16 Oct 2009 23:06:37 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-the-system/#comment-5642 That hints at Godel's work. Possibly the incompleteness theorem. I am sure someone more familar can correct me, but I seem to remember something along the lines of being unable to prove something about a system from with in the system. Given Demings background in physics I wouldn't be surprised if he knew about this and saw its application to industry. That hints at Godel's work. Possibly the incompleteness theorem. I am sure someone more familar can correct me, but I seem to remember something along the lines of being unable to prove something about a system from with in the system. Given Demings background in physics I wouldn't be surprised if he knew about this and saw its application to industry.

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]]> By: Steve Harper http://www.leanblog.org/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-system/#comment-5641 Steve Harper Fri, 16 Oct 2009 02:47:35 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-the-system/#comment-5641 I don't think Deming is actually suggesting that change can't come from the inside. He's saying that it requires a VIEW from the outside. What he's saying is that if you're in the forest, you can't see it for the trees. You need to view it from outside in order to understand it as a system. If you don't understand the system, making changes to it would be "meddling" as he commonly said. Understanding the system does not require you to be an outsider. You just need to see the system as a whole.<br /><br />I also just got through reading Built to Last which suggests that perhaps the best people to create change in an organization are the insiders and NOT outsiders. Great companies breed people and organizations capable of great things. Usually when the outsiders brought in to create change leave, so does any progress made under their tenure.<br /><br />I think what this all means is that outsiders can bring in new ideas, but if the system doesn't change, it will revert to its former state once the outside influence departs. I don't think Deming is actually suggesting that change can't come from the inside. He's saying that it requires a VIEW from the outside. What he's saying is that if you're in the forest, you can't see it for the trees. You need to view it from outside in order to understand it as a system. If you don't understand the system, making changes to it would be "meddling" as he commonly said. Understanding the system does not require you to be an outsider. You just need to see the system as a whole.

I also just got through reading Built to Last which suggests that perhaps the best people to create change in an organization are the insiders and NOT outsiders. Great companies breed people and organizations capable of great things. Usually when the outsiders brought in to create change leave, so does any progress made under their tenure.

I think what this all means is that outsiders can bring in new ideas, but if the system doesn't change, it will revert to its former state once the outside influence departs.

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]]> By: Andrew Bishop http://www.leanblog.org/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-system/#comment-5640 Andrew Bishop Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:00:42 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-the-system/#comment-5640 Lester:<br /><br />You just beat me with the Einstein quote! I use it regularly when encouraging people to bring in outside resources as they begin a lean transformation. Reading works, but it takes a special mind and ALOT MORE TIME to pull yourself up by your bootstraps with books. Teachers and networking move things along much faster.<br /><br />-ALB Lester:

You just beat me with the Einstein quote! I use it regularly when encouraging people to bring in outside resources as they begin a lean transformation. Reading works, but it takes a special mind and ALOT MORE TIME to pull yourself up by your bootstraps with books. Teachers and networking move things along much faster.

-ALB

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]]> By: Lester http://www.leanblog.org/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-system/#comment-5639 Lester Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:47:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-the-system/#comment-5639 Steve Harper has the closest quote from Deming that I know of. I really sounds more like the Einstein quote: "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” Steve Harper has the closest quote from Deming that I know of. I really sounds more like the Einstein quote: "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”

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]]> By: Steve Harper http://www.leanblog.org/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-system/#comment-5636 Steve Harper Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:02:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-the-system/#comment-5636 Mark - I think you are referring to Chapter 4, The New Economics:<br />"Aim of this chapter. The prevailing style of management must undergo transformation. A system can not understand itself. The transformation requires a view from outside. The aim of this chapter is to provide an outside view--a lens--that I call a system of profound knowledge. It provides a map of theory by which to understand the organizations that we work in." Mark – I think you are referring to Chapter 4, The New Economics:
"Aim of this chapter. The prevailing style of management must undergo transformation. A system can not understand itself. The transformation requires a view from outside. The aim of this chapter is to provide an outside view–a lens–that I call a system of profound knowledge. It provides a map of theory by which to understand the organizations that we work in."

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]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-system/#comment-5635 Anonymous Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:43:53 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2009/10/change-from-inside-or-outside-of-the-system/#comment-5635 I seem to remember reading something from Deming proposing that our educational system has destroyed our creativity. If we as individuals and teams could think outside the box we wouldn’t need the outside influence. Myself I need the outside influence, because my method is copy and adapt, but I need a starting place. I seem to remember reading something from Deming proposing that our educational system has destroyed our creativity. If we as individuals and teams could think outside the box we wouldn’t need the outside influence. Myself I need the outside influence, because my method is copy and adapt, but I need a starting place.

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