Comments on: To Layoff or Not To Layoff — That Really is a Question http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really/ Mark Graban's leanblog.org - Lean Healthcare, Lean Thinking, Lean Manufacturing, Toyota Production System Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:01:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Another Article on Firms that Don’t Use Layoffs — Lean Blog http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really/#comment-22886 Another Article on Firms that Don’t Use Layoffs — Lean Blog Thu, 28 Jul 2011 03:49:25 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really-is-a-question/#comment-22886 [...] a follow up to my recent post on layoffs (or not to layoff). There was a lot of good discussion and I’ll amplify my point that it’s got to be part [...] [...] a follow up to my recent post on layoffs (or not to layoff). There was a lot of good discussion and I’ll amplify my point that it’s got to be part [...]

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]]> By: Great Newsweek Cover Story on Why Layoffs Are Harmful — Lean Blog http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really/#comment-8344 Great Newsweek Cover Story on Why Layoffs Are Harmful — Lean Blog Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:01:40 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really-is-a-question/#comment-8344 [...] passed up on that chance after 9/11. Toyota passed on that opportunity recently, as well (due to slow business and, most recently, due to quality [...] [...] passed up on that chance after 9/11. Toyota passed on that opportunity recently, as well (due to slow business and, most recently, due to quality [...]

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]]> By: Bob Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really/#comment-4267 Bob Graban Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:58:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really-is-a-question/#comment-4267 The jobs bank program was negotiated with a union per their special interests. But the point is, Toyota's "investment", like the jobs bank is paying people not to work (in the physics / practical sense, work has to produce motion / useful output to be defined as work).<br/><br/>It seems almost perverse that the negotiated incentives would lead people to stare at a wall to get paid instead of doing something useful and productive. I do remember some millwrights at GM (very nice guys except when it came to union business) who would sit around all day, talk and drink coffee. If you wanted something moved, they would play the extortion game and demand overtime on Saturday and Sunday for it to get done. So they wasted away many precious, finitely numbered days of their lives, having little time off on weekends in order to make money which they didn't have time to spend and enjoy. <br/><br/>Wouldn't it have been so much better to increase productivity and gain the long-term financial rewards that come with that? The jobs bank program was negotiated with a union per their special interests. But the point is, Toyota’s “investment”, like the jobs bank is paying people not to work (in the physics / practical sense, work has to produce motion / useful output to be defined as work).

It seems almost perverse that the negotiated incentives would lead people to stare at a wall to get paid instead of doing something useful and productive. I do remember some millwrights at GM (very nice guys except when it came to union business) who would sit around all day, talk and drink coffee. If you wanted something moved, they would play the extortion game and demand overtime on Saturday and Sunday for it to get done. So they wasted away many precious, finitely numbered days of their lives, having little time off on weekends in order to make money which they didn’t have time to spend and enjoy.

Wouldn’t it have been so much better to increase productivity and gain the long-term financial rewards that come with that?

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]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really/#comment-4266 Anonymous Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:58:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really-is-a-question/#comment-4266 I do not endorse this behavior... I wonder if we'll see more of this:<br/><br/>After Indian factory workers killed their CEO, a laid-off employee killed the CEO in San Franciso... they had a Christmas/Holiday party right after the layoffs. This was just in the news Dec 15.<br/><br/>The news also says there will be riots if the auto industry is bailed out (what about MY job???).<br/><br/>I'm really worried that the economic distress will lead to more violence as people get frustrated and lash out.<br/><br/>Was there lots of violence during the Great Depression like this? Who knows the history of that??? I do not endorse this behavior… I wonder if we’ll see more of this:

After Indian factory workers killed their CEO, a laid-off employee killed the CEO in San Franciso… they had a Christmas/Holiday party right after the layoffs. This was just in the news Dec 15.

The news also says there will be riots if the auto industry is bailed out (what about MY job???).

I’m really worried that the economic distress will lead to more violence as people get frustrated and lash out.

Was there lots of violence during the Great Depression like this? Who knows the history of that???

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]]> By: Mark Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really/#comment-4265 Mark Graban Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:31:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really-is-a-question/#comment-4265 From Fox News:<br/><br/>"The program, called "Jobs Banks," has been around for 24 years. Some of the employees at jobs banks choose to do community service, but others do crossword puzzles and watch TV all day -- or just stare at a wall. "<br/><br/><a HREF="http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2008/11/21/automakers-ask-bailout-paying-workers-sit/" REL="nofollow">LINK</a> From Fox News:

“The program, called “Jobs Banks,” has been around for 24 years. Some of the employees at jobs banks choose to do community service, but others do crossword puzzles and watch TV all day — or just stare at a wall. “

LINK

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]]> By: Mark Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really/#comment-4264 Mark Graban Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:29:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really-is-a-question/#comment-4264 Sitting in the cafeteria and reading the paper (or not having to come to work at all) is not "investing in people."<br/><br/>That's different than Toyota training people how to use paint guns and teaching them TPS principles for their future work. Sitting in the cafeteria and reading the paper (or not having to come to work at all) is not “investing in people.”

That’s different than Toyota training people how to use paint guns and teaching them TPS principles for their future work.

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]]> By: Bob Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really/#comment-4263 Bob Graban Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:16:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really-is-a-question/#comment-4263 Your blog said <i>"I don't know if Danaher has let go temps or full-time workers. They let go 1700, Toyota is training and investing in 4500, waiting for sales to come back up."</i><br/><br/>When Toyota pays people not to work, it's called "investing"; when GM, Ford and Chrysler do that, it's called the jobs bank.<br/><br/>What if sales don't come back up anytime soon? Your blog said “I don’t know if Danaher has let go temps or full-time workers. They let go 1700, Toyota is training and investing in 4500, waiting for sales to come back up.”

When Toyota pays people not to work, it’s called “investing”; when GM, Ford and Chrysler do that, it’s called the jobs bank.

What if sales don’t come back up anytime soon?

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]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really/#comment-4262 Anonymous Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:13:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really-is-a-question/#comment-4262 No lay off policies are excellent for companies who are built on the foundation of Just that. If it is not - one cannot follow it.<br/><br/>Any public company is spending the money of its investors to pay their people, produce product and secure and maintain customers. I owned my own company and I lost of money running it with my partner. It is not a good feeling to lose your money trying to build a business. So, its the same deal with investors. As an employee one of my primary job is to strive to make more money to the investor. And some times when your revenues are dwindling the number of choices available are few. You are forced to take measures like - lay offs.<br/>And I dont think there is any difference in laying off a temporary team member Vs a permanent team member. Some one losses his/her job, some family is invariable going to have to suffer. No lay off policies are excellent for companies who are built on the foundation of Just that. If it is not – one cannot follow it.

Any public company is spending the money of its investors to pay their people, produce product and secure and maintain customers. I owned my own company and I lost of money running it with my partner. It is not a good feeling to lose your money trying to build a business. So, its the same deal with investors. As an employee one of my primary job is to strive to make more money to the investor. And some times when your revenues are dwindling the number of choices available are few. You are forced to take measures like – lay offs.
And I dont think there is any difference in laying off a temporary team member Vs a permanent team member. Some one losses his/her job, some family is invariable going to have to suffer.

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]]> By: Andy Wagner http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really/#comment-4261 Andy Wagner Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:44:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really-is-a-question/#comment-4261 I've been with my company since 2002, the first two years as a contractor, then as a direct hire. There was a major downturn in our industry back in '02, so they laid people off in quick order. Mostly younger people who had just finished training and getting qualified to operate independently. (Lucky for me, I was brought in as a temp when they were hungry to replace the expensive permanent folks they let go). By 2004 they were hiring anybody they could find, to meet the needs of the upturn. In '05-'06 we probably had enough "bodies" but we sure as heck could have used the experience of those folks let go. There were plenty of old reliables to do the training, plenty of young talent, but few mainstream "doers." As a result most of our cost reduction programs suffered. Now of course, we're on the verge of the next cycle. It'll be interesting to see who's left on the other side. Are we going to cut off our nose despite our face again? I’ve been with my company since 2002, the first two years as a contractor, then as a direct hire. There was a major downturn in our industry back in ’02, so they laid people off in quick order. Mostly younger people who had just finished training and getting qualified to operate independently. (Lucky for me, I was brought in as a temp when they were hungry to replace the expensive permanent folks they let go). By 2004 they were hiring anybody they could find, to meet the needs of the upturn. In ’05-’06 we probably had enough “bodies” but we sure as heck could have used the experience of those folks let go. There were plenty of old reliables to do the training, plenty of young talent, but few mainstream “doers.” As a result most of our cost reduction programs suffered. Now of course, we’re on the verge of the next cycle. It’ll be interesting to see who’s left on the other side. Are we going to cut off our nose despite our face again?

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]]> By: Neutron Jerk http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really/#comment-4258 Neutron Jerk Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:54:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/to-layoff-or-not-to-layoff-that-really-is-a-question/#comment-4258 Let me get a word in here, as my user name mocks a "great CEO:" who fired people all the time.<br/><br/>I think what most companies miss is that if you have a "no layoffs" principle, you run everything accordingly. You make sure you don't grow too fast. You make sure you don't overhire. You make sure you learn how to take out costs in ways other than layoffs.<br/><br/>You don't wake up at the last minute and say "oh shit, I want to avoid layoffs." At that point, it's too late. It has to be in the DNA of your company. If it's not, just go ahead and do the layoffs, tell yourself it's just part of your job (ala Neutron Jack Welch) and get on with it. Go back to sleep. Let me get a word in here, as my user name mocks a “great CEO:” who fired people all the time.

I think what most companies miss is that if you have a “no layoffs” principle, you run everything accordingly. You make sure you don’t grow too fast. You make sure you don’t overhire. You make sure you learn how to take out costs in ways other than layoffs.

You don’t wake up at the last minute and say “oh shit, I want to avoid layoffs.” At that point, it’s too late. It has to be in the DNA of your company. If it’s not, just go ahead and do the layoffs, tell yourself it’s just part of your job (ala Neutron Jack Welch) and get on with it. Go back to sleep.

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