Comments on: "Educators" Don’t Learn that Pay for Grades is Harmful http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for/ Mark Graban's leanblog.org - Lean Healthcare, Lean Thinking, Lean Manufacturing, Toyota Production System Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:01:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: LeanBlog Podcast #57 – Alfie Kohn, “Punished by Rewards” — Lean Blog http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for/#comment-22896 LeanBlog Podcast #57 – Alfie Kohn, “Punished by Rewards” — Lean Blog Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:25:05 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for-grades-is-harmful/#comment-22896 [...] Why Our Kids Get Too Much of a Bad Thing. I reached out to Alfie after there was some very good discussion on the blog about Chicago Public Schools giving incentive payments to high school students earning A’s, [...] [...] Why Our Kids Get Too Much of a Bad Thing. I reached out to Alfie after there was some very good discussion on the blog about Chicago Public Schools giving incentive payments to high school students earning A’s, [...]

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]]> By: Mark Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for/#comment-4622 Mark Graban Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:47:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for-grades-is-harmful/#comment-4622 More of a bad idea? Saw this on Fox News this morning:<br/><br/>http://www.gradefund.com/<br/><br/>Sounds good on the surface, but more of the same problems? The one college kid who is getting paid for grades said something like, "In HS, you want good grades to get into college, but what's the motivation in college?"<br/><br/>Um, learning? Life? More of a bad idea? Saw this on Fox News this morning:

http://www.gradefund.com/

Sounds good on the surface, but more of the same problems? The one college kid who is getting paid for grades said something like, “In HS, you want good grades to get into college, but what’s the motivation in college?”

Um, learning? Life?

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]]> By: Mark Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for/#comment-4295 Mark Graban Mon, 22 Dec 2008 15:09:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for-grades-is-harmful/#comment-4295 Good op-ed from Alfie Kohn in USA Today recently:<br/><br/><a HREF="http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/UToppose.htm" REL="nofollow">LINK</a><br/><br/>Scroll down to #11 in his list of pieces.<br/><br/><br/>"* Children (and learning) have intrinsic value; they're not just means to economic ends, such as boosting the "competitiveness" of U.S. corporations."<br/><br/>His book "Punished By Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other Bribes" looks like a good read.<br/><br/><a HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Punished-Rewards-Trouble-Incentive-Praise/dp/0618001816/ref=pd_bbs_sr_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229958536&sr=8-5" REL="nofollow">LINK</a> Good op-ed from Alfie Kohn in USA Today recently:

LINK

Scroll down to #11 in his list of pieces.

“* Children (and learning) have intrinsic value; they’re not just means to economic ends, such as boosting the “competitiveness” of U.S. corporations.”

His book “Punished By Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A’s, Praise, and Other Bribes” looks like a good read.

LINK

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]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for/#comment-4222 Anonymous Thu, 04 Dec 2008 12:34:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for-grades-is-harmful/#comment-4222 Roland Fryer was on the Colbert Report the other night talking about his idea. <br/><br/>It sounds even worse when he talks about it. <br/><br/> - Ryan Roland Fryer was on the Colbert Report the other night talking about his idea.

It sounds even worse when he talks about it.

– Ryan

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]]> By: Mike T. http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for/#comment-4218 Mike T. Tue, 02 Dec 2008 21:22:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for-grades-is-harmful/#comment-4218 I have to agree that each individual is unique. While we like to believe that Maslow was right, I've never been fully convinced. Different people respond to situations differently. It is what makes each of us unique. It is a manager's job as a leader to learn how to effectively motivate his/her employees.<br/><br/>I remember a successful coach when I was in high school. The single greatest lesson I learned from him was how to judge people and motivate them - not simply winning or losing. To believe that all people desire intrinsic rewards is similar to saying all people learn the same way... I have to agree that each individual is unique. While we like to believe that Maslow was right, I’ve never been fully convinced. Different people respond to situations differently. It is what makes each of us unique. It is a manager’s job as a leader to learn how to effectively motivate his/her employees.

I remember a successful coach when I was in high school. The single greatest lesson I learned from him was how to judge people and motivate them – not simply winning or losing. To believe that all people desire intrinsic rewards is similar to saying all people learn the same way…

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]]> By: Matt McKnight http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for/#comment-4216 Matt McKnight Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:20:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for-grades-is-harmful/#comment-4216 The intrinsic/extrinsic thing isn't as simplistic as you make it out to be. <br/><br/>The intrinsic rewards of education as a means of self-betterment just aren't there for a lot of kids- in fact, the opposite is the case where performing poorly can lead to greater peer acceptance. It's not a vast amount of money that people are getting- it certainly could work out to a very low hourly rate. However, it is tying something to performance beyond a grand abstraction of a GPA and college admission that is beyond the immediate problems facing many students. In a sense, money is the motivation for much of education- we go to school to get more valuable jobs. It makes great behavioral sense to move some of that reward a little closer in time to the activity that is deserving of reward. <br/><br/>I wouldn't pay anything for a C though! The intrinsic/extrinsic thing isn’t as simplistic as you make it out to be.

The intrinsic rewards of education as a means of self-betterment just aren’t there for a lot of kids- in fact, the opposite is the case where performing poorly can lead to greater peer acceptance. It’s not a vast amount of money that people are getting- it certainly could work out to a very low hourly rate. However, it is tying something to performance beyond a grand abstraction of a GPA and college admission that is beyond the immediate problems facing many students. In a sense, money is the motivation for much of education- we go to school to get more valuable jobs. It makes great behavioral sense to move some of that reward a little closer in time to the activity that is deserving of reward.

I wouldn’t pay anything for a C though!

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]]> By: David http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for/#comment-4215 David Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:59:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for-grades-is-harmful/#comment-4215 Some thoughts on this, and some interesting research results, <a HREF="http://photoncourier.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_photoncourier_archive.html#1172136102858912763" REL="nofollow">here</a>. Some thoughts on this, and some interesting research results, here.

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]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for/#comment-4214 Anonymous Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:56:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for-grades-is-harmful/#comment-4214 Here's a link to a similar program in Georgia. Newt and his daughter talked about it on "Huckabee" yesterday on Fox News. My guess is you'll hear more about it in the news. Maybe getting the kids in the classroom this way can kick-start the "intrinsic motivation" to learn. I'm willing to give it a try. If my teenager is motivated by natural intrinsic rewards, he keeps it very well hidden. <br/>http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89831116 Here’s a link to a similar program in Georgia. Newt and his daughter talked about it on “Huckabee” yesterday on Fox News. My guess is you’ll hear more about it in the news. Maybe getting the kids in the classroom this way can kick-start the “intrinsic motivation” to learn. I’m willing to give it a try. If my teenager is motivated by natural intrinsic rewards, he keeps it very well hidden.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89831116

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]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for/#comment-4213 Anonymous Mon, 01 Dec 2008 18:22:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/educators-dont-learn-that-pay-for-grades-is-harmful/#comment-4213 Hmmmm... Interesting topic and views. Overall I agree that to be intrinsically motivated is better than extrincisally motivated, but we've got to acknowledge that each individual is different. Some are EXtrinsically motivated - children as well as adults. No, the Chicago School system should NOT be giving kids money for better grades - but maybe there is nothing wrong with a parent, at his/her own choice, rewarding a child who isn't intrinsically motivated. If anyone reading this has children, you might understand this. For example, have you ever seen a child motivated by extracurricular activities? In other words, perform well enough in school or your don't participate? That's not intrinsic motivation, but it works. I know because it worked on me, personally. All kids are different. What works with one may not work with another. I think where we get into trouble is with the "one size fits all" mentality. We've got to face up to the fact that there are plenty of jobs/careers in our society that are not intrinsically rewarding and that at least some of the people holding them do so for the monetary (one form of extrinsic) rewards. Until we have a perfect world we've got to acknowledge that everyone is different and that motivation, be it intrinsic or extrinsic, will vary. Hmmmm… Interesting topic and views. Overall I agree that to be intrinsically motivated is better than extrincisally motivated, but we’ve got to acknowledge that each individual is different. Some are EXtrinsically motivated – children as well as adults. No, the Chicago School system should NOT be giving kids money for better grades – but maybe there is nothing wrong with a parent, at his/her own choice, rewarding a child who isn’t intrinsically motivated. If anyone reading this has children, you might understand this. For example, have you ever seen a child motivated by extracurricular activities? In other words, perform well enough in school or your don’t participate? That’s not intrinsic motivation, but it works. I know because it worked on me, personally. All kids are different. What works with one may not work with another. I think where we get into trouble is with the “one size fits all” mentality. We’ve got to face up to the fact that there are plenty of jobs/careers in our society that are not intrinsically rewarding and that at least some of the people holding them do so for the monetary (one form of extrinsic) rewards. Until we have a perfect world we’ve got to acknowledge that everyone is different and that motivation, be it intrinsic or extrinsic, will vary.

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