Comments on: Another Article on Firms that Don’t Use Layoffs http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use/ Mark Graban's leanblog.org - Lean Healthcare, Lean Thinking, Lean Manufacturing, Toyota Production System Thu, 09 Feb 2012 22:59:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mark Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use/#comment-4296 Mark Graban Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:23:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use-layoffs/#comment-4296 Posted with permission of an emailer -- thoughts?<br/><br/>Why don't you ask your readers if they think it's OK to fire an employee if they are not performing no matter if times are good or bad... even after being given a fair chance and opportunity to improve. This would go along with your recent posts about how weeding out bad apples during down turns is chicken sh*t management (my words of course).<br/><br/>Full disclosure: I recently let a guy go who made about about $200k per year and didn't want to travel, engage sites, etc. He didn't want to do anything but sit at home and manage via conference call. So, I put him on a 6 month performance improvement plan and gave him a chance to change. He didn't want to... so we let him go (and paid him a huge severance which is unbelievable but I digress...).<br/><br/>Thoughts? Posted with permission of an emailer — thoughts?

Why don’t you ask your readers if they think it’s OK to fire an employee if they are not performing no matter if times are good or bad… even after being given a fair chance and opportunity to improve. This would go along with your recent posts about how weeding out bad apples during down turns is chicken sh*t management (my words of course).

Full disclosure: I recently let a guy go who made about about $200k per year and didn’t want to travel, engage sites, etc. He didn’t want to do anything but sit at home and manage via conference call. So, I put him on a 6 month performance improvement plan and gave him a chance to change. He didn’t want to… so we let him go (and paid him a huge severance which is unbelievable but I digress…).

Thoughts?

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]]> By: Mark Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use/#comment-4293 Mark Graban Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:56:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use-layoffs/#comment-4293 I won't belabor the point with another post, but here's another article on ThedaCare and their no-layoff "philosophy" (not a "policy".<br/><br/><a HREF="http://www.jsonline.com/business/36477214.html" REL="nofollow">LINK</a><br/><br/>"ThedaCare's approach is part of its commitment to eliminate waste and improve quality by drawing on techniques first developed by Toyota Motor Corp.<br/><br/>Those techniques rely heavily on employees finding ways to do their jobs more efficiently. At the same time, employees are unlikely to do that if it means they could lose their jobs.<br/><br/>"Nobody would get very enthusiastic about improvement in that world," said Dean Gruner, a physician and chief executive and president of ThedaCare." I won’t belabor the point with another post, but here’s another article on ThedaCare and their no-layoff “philosophy” (not a “policy”.

LINK

“ThedaCare’s approach is part of its commitment to eliminate waste and improve quality by drawing on techniques first developed by Toyota Motor Corp.

Those techniques rely heavily on employees finding ways to do their jobs more efficiently. At the same time, employees are unlikely to do that if it means they could lose their jobs.

“Nobody would get very enthusiastic about improvement in that world,” said Dean Gruner, a physician and chief executive and president of ThedaCare.”

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]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use/#comment-4275 Anonymous Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:28:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use-layoffs/#comment-4275 Layoffs are a sad event in any company. I've been cut myself a few times including a voluntary one to save a job for a man with a family to support.<br/><br/>Do I like them? No. But, not every industry has the opportunity to sweat out a few years of expected poor sales demand for their product, i.e., commodities and other natural resource industries by shuffling people.<br/><br/>Some manufacturers have new product pipelines but what about cement plants and similar products where the housing market dried up in 2007/08 and now looking at commercial doing the same in 2009/10 as existing businesses close leaving plenty of empty strip mall stores and other companies scale back on building too?<br/><br/>Beat on Jack all that you want but the fact remains that GE was made stronger and improved in many ways under his watch. Layoffs are a sad event in any company. I’ve been cut myself a few times including a voluntary one to save a job for a man with a family to support.

Do I like them? No. But, not every industry has the opportunity to sweat out a few years of expected poor sales demand for their product, i.e., commodities and other natural resource industries by shuffling people.

Some manufacturers have new product pipelines but what about cement plants and similar products where the housing market dried up in 2007/08 and now looking at commercial doing the same in 2009/10 as existing businesses close leaving plenty of empty strip mall stores and other companies scale back on building too?

Beat on Jack all that you want but the fact remains that GE was made stronger and improved in many ways under his watch.

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]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use/#comment-4274 Anonymous Thu, 18 Dec 2008 04:04:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use-layoffs/#comment-4274 I'm going to disagree strongly with the first anon. I've also worked in manufacturing in healthcare.<br/><br/>You said "Callous, ruthless, live for the corporate best interest. Emphasis on individual performance versus focus on process improvement - right down to the peformance management system."<br/><br/>There are LOTS of sweet, caring, wonderful people in healthcare. Most of them aren't the least bit process focused. Their managers sit in ivory towers and are just as callous and ruthless toward patients and employees as any Montgomery Burns type factory manager might ever be. It's worse when they exhibit that behavior in a "caring" industry. The healthcare managers and leaders couldn't be more out of touch with their people and the "gemba." It's really sad and disgusting. Employees don't get enough support or help and they're blamed when something goes wrong. The managers give incentives that drive individual focus, not value stream focus. There is no teamwork, just finger pointing.<br/><br/>Why do these abused workers stay in healthcare? Exactly because they're such sweet wonderful people. They deserve better from their leadership. I'm frustrated. I hope healthcare leaders at the top start "getting it" instead of just running lots of lean projects.<br/><br/>Oh, and many hospitals are laying off staff to "cut costs." So you think healthcare mgmt is better than manufacturing??? Not likely. I’m going to disagree strongly with the first anon. I’ve also worked in manufacturing in healthcare.

You said “Callous, ruthless, live for the corporate best interest. Emphasis on individual performance versus focus on process improvement – right down to the peformance management system.”

There are LOTS of sweet, caring, wonderful people in healthcare. Most of them aren’t the least bit process focused. Their managers sit in ivory towers and are just as callous and ruthless toward patients and employees as any Montgomery Burns type factory manager might ever be. It’s worse when they exhibit that behavior in a “caring” industry. The healthcare managers and leaders couldn’t be more out of touch with their people and the “gemba.” It’s really sad and disgusting. Employees don’t get enough support or help and they’re blamed when something goes wrong. The managers give incentives that drive individual focus, not value stream focus. There is no teamwork, just finger pointing.

Why do these abused workers stay in healthcare? Exactly because they’re such sweet wonderful people. They deserve better from their leadership. I’m frustrated. I hope healthcare leaders at the top start “getting it” instead of just running lots of lean projects.

Oh, and many hospitals are laying off staff to “cut costs.” So you think healthcare mgmt is better than manufacturing??? Not likely.

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]]> By: Larry http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use/#comment-4273 Larry Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:08:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use-layoffs/#comment-4273 Great blog post Mark. Thinking of Deming's 14 points is critical during this time in the economy. Remeber point #8 Drive Out Fear. How can management remove fear in the organization when they are using layoffs as a measure for success? Ultimately it is fear of layoffs that is going to drive the recession and not the actual bottom line of companies. Once organizations realize that management is the cause of poor performance, as Deming pointed out, then they will be able to transform themselves. Deming's philosophies can help a lot of these organizations now. Great blog post Mark. Thinking of Deming’s 14 points is critical during this time in the economy. Remeber point #8 Drive Out Fear. How can management remove fear in the organization when they are using layoffs as a measure for success? Ultimately it is fear of layoffs that is going to drive the recession and not the actual bottom line of companies. Once organizations realize that management is the cause of poor performance, as Deming pointed out, then they will be able to transform themselves. Deming’s philosophies can help a lot of these organizations now.

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]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use/#comment-4272 Anonymous Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:24:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use-layoffs/#comment-4272 Walter, shouldn't the process of getting bad performers out be separate than "layoffs"? When I think of "layoffs" I think of the company having to reduce force because of business or financial problems... why not get rid of poor performers just because you should? Why tolerate the mediocrity? That's a management failure -- either not coaching people to improve or not getting them moved on. Walter, shouldn’t the process of getting bad performers out be separate than “layoffs”? When I think of “layoffs” I think of the company having to reduce force because of business or financial problems… why not get rid of poor performers just because you should? Why tolerate the mediocrity? That’s a management failure — either not coaching people to improve or not getting them moved on.

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]]> By: Walter http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use/#comment-4271 Walter Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:29:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use-layoffs/#comment-4271 I personally believe lay-offs can serve an important function in limited circumstances.<br/><br/>I've worked in a corporation where there was little-to-no culture of dealing with chronic poor performance. And this practice permeated through multiple layers of middle management.<br/><br/>In addition, it was very easy for people to "hide-out" in mediocrity, while at the same time feeling entitled.<br/><br/>Lay-offs are a forced way of dealing with both of these problems.<br/><br/>They also create the opportunity for healthy self-reflection about what you do to create value for your company.<br/><br/>With that said, if layoffs are not few and far between, any positive effects will be dwarfed by the negative.<br/><br/><a HREF="http://www.WhoIsWalterReade.com" REL="nofollow">Walter Reade</a> (from Wisconsin) I personally believe lay-offs can serve an important function in limited circumstances.

I’ve worked in a corporation where there was little-to-no culture of dealing with chronic poor performance. And this practice permeated through multiple layers of middle management.

In addition, it was very easy for people to “hide-out” in mediocrity, while at the same time feeling entitled.

Lay-offs are a forced way of dealing with both of these problems.

They also create the opportunity for healthy self-reflection about what you do to create value for your company.

With that said, if layoffs are not few and far between, any positive effects will be dwarfed by the negative.

Walter Reade (from Wisconsin)

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]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use/#comment-4270 Anonymous Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:35:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use-layoffs/#comment-4270 The notion of layoffs having more social acceptance - don't know if we "thank" Jack specifically for that or not, but I agree that layoffs are, unfortunatly, more accepted these days. Sad what this has done to any semblance of organizational loyalty that once might have existed here in the U.S. It's hard to see how organizations truly want employees to be loyal when they know at any time they could be shoved out the door. Perhaps the other side to this coin is that it's no longer considered a negative for someone to have a long list of employers (almost job hopping) these days on one's resume because of the "new" climate. Sad. <br/><br/>Keep Dr. Deming's philosophy in the forefront, Mark! He'll always be a giant... It doesn't matter which way the organizational management philosophy pendulum seems to swing... The notion of layoffs having more social acceptance – don’t know if we “thank” Jack specifically for that or not, but I agree that layoffs are, unfortunatly, more accepted these days. Sad what this has done to any semblance of organizational loyalty that once might have existed here in the U.S. It’s hard to see how organizations truly want employees to be loyal when they know at any time they could be shoved out the door. Perhaps the other side to this coin is that it’s no longer considered a negative for someone to have a long list of employers (almost job hopping) these days on one’s resume because of the “new” climate. Sad.

Keep Dr. Deming’s philosophy in the forefront, Mark! He’ll always be a giant… It doesn’t matter which way the organizational management philosophy pendulum seems to swing…

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]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use/#comment-4269 Anonymous Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:56:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/12/another-article-on-firms-that-dont-use-layoffs/#comment-4269 Having worked in manufacturing (for a company with former GE leadership) and now in healthcare, it's very difficult to compare the two because I've found the values to be so different. Although there are no absolutes, I found manufacturing more competitively and financially driven; helathcare more driven by patient care, yet keeping in mind financial viability. My personal preference, and values, align much more with healthcare - essentially, nothing matters more than people, be they patients or employees. My experience in a quasi G.E. run company was one much described in the Neutron Jack link. Callous, ruthless, live for the corporate best interest. Emphasis on individual performance versus focus on process improvement - right down to the peformance management system. I have come to respect and admire people in healthcare as some of the most selfless and caring people I have ever known. There are many good souls in manufacturing, too, but unfortunately, their values, as a general rule of thumb, especially those of the Neutron Jack mold, do not align with my own. Having worked in manufacturing (for a company with former GE leadership) and now in healthcare, it’s very difficult to compare the two because I’ve found the values to be so different. Although there are no absolutes, I found manufacturing more competitively and financially driven; helathcare more driven by patient care, yet keeping in mind financial viability. My personal preference, and values, align much more with healthcare – essentially, nothing matters more than people, be they patients or employees. My experience in a quasi G.E. run company was one much described in the Neutron Jack link. Callous, ruthless, live for the corporate best interest. Emphasis on individual performance versus focus on process improvement – right down to the peformance management system. I have come to respect and admire people in healthcare as some of the most selfless and caring people I have ever known. There are many good souls in manufacturing, too, but unfortunately, their values, as a general rule of thumb, especially those of the Neutron Jack mold, do not align with my own.

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