Comments on: School System Using Toyota Methods? http://www.leanblog.org/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/ Mark Graban's leanblog.org - Lean Healthcare, Lean Thinking, Lean Manufacturing, Toyota Production System Thu, 09 Feb 2012 22:59:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mark Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3200 Mark Graban Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:41:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3200 I never did hear back from the superintendent after I emailed him, so I guess we won't hear more from his perspective, unfortunately. I never did hear back from the superintendent after I emailed him, so I guess we won’t hear more from his perspective, unfortunately.

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]]> By: Mike T. http://www.leanblog.org/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3066 Mike T. Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:52:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3066 This discussion brings a question to my mind. What if teachers did a 5-why for determining the root cause of children failing on a quiz or test score? How often do we just make the assumption that "Joey" doesn't try hard enough or "Jane" doesn't pay attention during class.<br/><br/>Are those 'reasons' better than "operator error" when determining the cause of a defect?<br/><br/>Also, I believe there have been alternative schools which utilize a form of Pull in education, letting students learn at their own pace to some degree. I know I was terribly bored in most of my elementary and secondary education. The best class I had was one where the teacher provided what you needed to get an "A" by semester's end. If memory serves, I had my A just after the mid-point of the semester. Gave me lots of free time! This discussion brings a question to my mind. What if teachers did a 5-why for determining the root cause of children failing on a quiz or test score? How often do we just make the assumption that “Joey” doesn’t try hard enough or “Jane” doesn’t pay attention during class.

Are those ‘reasons’ better than “operator error” when determining the cause of a defect?

Also, I believe there have been alternative schools which utilize a form of Pull in education, letting students learn at their own pace to some degree. I know I was terribly bored in most of my elementary and secondary education. The best class I had was one where the teacher provided what you needed to get an “A” by semester’s end. If memory serves, I had my A just after the mid-point of the semester. Gave me lots of free time!

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]]> By: Ron Pereira http://www.leanblog.org/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3065 Ron Pereira Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:07:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3065 J, actually I just spoke to a colleague who is a former GE employee and he tells me GE has plants in Japan. <br/><br/>Of course they wouldn't have as much presence as Toyota does but they do operate in the country so technically could have karoshi issues.<br/><br/>But you and Mark are probably right... comparing these two companies on this issue may be stretching it a bit.<br/><br/>But we all must be carful, myself included, of acting as if Toyota is infallible. They are not. <br/><br/>Just read Jon Millers blog and focus in on the "The Secret Lives of Toyota Term Employees" series. The "Tahara prison" does not sound like a place I want to send my kids to work in.<br/><br/>Of course, who knows if those Japanese bloggers are legit. J, actually I just spoke to a colleague who is a former GE employee and he tells me GE has plants in Japan.

Of course they wouldn’t have as much presence as Toyota does but they do operate in the country so technically could have karoshi issues.

But you and Mark are probably right… comparing these two companies on this issue may be stretching it a bit.

But we all must be carful, myself included, of acting as if Toyota is infallible. They are not.

Just read Jon Millers blog and focus in on the “The Secret Lives of Toyota Term Employees” series. The “Tahara prison” does not sound like a place I want to send my kids to work in.

Of course, who knows if those Japanese bloggers are legit.

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]]> By: J Thatcher http://www.leanblog.org/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3063 J Thatcher Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:06:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3063 Ron, googling "GM" and "karoshi" wouldn't make sense.<br/>A better comparison might be health problem rates between workers in Toyota and the G.M.<br/>I have no idea how these results would come back, but expecting a company whose principle business coverage is in english to pop up with a lot of "karoshi" problems is sort of absurd.<br/><br/>I am interested in the comparable statistics. Does anyone have, or know how to get, just general worker health problem rates for the two companies?<br/>Again though, the differences in cultural environments would likely skew the results...<br/><br/>Regarding that article -<br/>This:<br/>"2. We gave school teams planning time and put coaches in the classroom to help our teachers improve their delivery of instruction."<br/><br/>Seems like one of the most potentially disastrous ideas I've heard in a long time.<br/>Inserting a new authority figure into a classroom, particularly one who has perceived authority over the instructor, usually has catastrophic results. Especially once the new authority figure leaves, the teacher has been completley undermined and has little ability to reestablish control. <br/>This is particularly the case if the instructor has discipline issues to begin with.<br/><br/>Furthermore, who are these "coaches?" The choice in terms seems to suggest they aren't educational professionals. This seems a bad idea.<br/><br/>Finally, point 4 is so vague as to be bereft of meaning.<br/>"tools to analyze student performance" - This is a new idea?<br/><br/><br/>I'm sorry if I sound particularly harsh on this issue, I'm not. <br/><br/>I think that, in actuality, it could be one of the best things to happen to an overworked, understaffed school district. It could drastically improve results and strengthen the feedback circuit through which issues are dealt.<br/><br/>I just worry <b>strongly</b> about the individual teachers "on the floor" as it were. Many of them have devoted their lives to this profession; education in a business setting is vastly different from educating children.<br/><br/>And it should be, applying tools haphazardly appears condescending and heavy-handed - and that worries me. Ron, googling “GM” and “karoshi” wouldn’t make sense.
A better comparison might be health problem rates between workers in Toyota and the G.M.
I have no idea how these results would come back, but expecting a company whose principle business coverage is in english to pop up with a lot of “karoshi” problems is sort of absurd.

I am interested in the comparable statistics. Does anyone have, or know how to get, just general worker health problem rates for the two companies?
Again though, the differences in cultural environments would likely skew the results…

Regarding that article -
This:
“2. We gave school teams planning time and put coaches in the classroom to help our teachers improve their delivery of instruction.”

Seems like one of the most potentially disastrous ideas I’ve heard in a long time.
Inserting a new authority figure into a classroom, particularly one who has perceived authority over the instructor, usually has catastrophic results. Especially once the new authority figure leaves, the teacher has been completley undermined and has little ability to reestablish control.
This is particularly the case if the instructor has discipline issues to begin with.

Furthermore, who are these “coaches?” The choice in terms seems to suggest they aren’t educational professionals. This seems a bad idea.

Finally, point 4 is so vague as to be bereft of meaning.
“tools to analyze student performance” – This is a new idea?

I’m sorry if I sound particularly harsh on this issue, I’m not.

I think that, in actuality, it could be one of the best things to happen to an overworked, understaffed school district. It could drastically improve results and strengthen the feedback circuit through which issues are dealt.

I just worry strongly about the individual teachers “on the floor” as it were. Many of them have devoted their lives to this profession; education in a business setting is vastly different from educating children.

And it should be, applying tools haphazardly appears condescending and heavy-handed – and that worries me.

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]]> By: Marlene Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3062 Marlene Graban Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:04:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3062 I believe that if the administrative or business side is lean then the teachers will be have what they need (both guidance and materials/supplies) to raise the student grades. I think<br/>they go hand in hand. Just an idea from a teacher not a lean specialist. I believe that if the administrative or business side is lean then the teachers will be have what they need (both guidance and materials/supplies) to raise the student grades. I think
they go hand in hand. Just an idea from a teacher not a lean specialist.

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]]> By: Mark Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3060 Mark Graban Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:39:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3060 Here's a link to that post that Dean mentioned:<br/><br/><a HREF="http://leaninsider.productivitypress.com/2008/01/atlanta-case-study-in-school.html" REL="nofollow">Link Here </a> Here’s a link to that post that Dean mentioned:

Link Here

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]]> By: Dean Bliss http://www.leanblog.org/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3059 Dean Bliss Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:32:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3059 There's a 1/23 post on the Lean Insider section of the Productivity Press website that talks about the Atlanta school system's use of what the article calls "business process improvement". There were 7 elements of improvement listed - number 4 is "We gave teachers and school leaders the tools to analyze student performance so they can continually adjust instruction". The article doesn't articulate the details, but this may address Mark's question about how using Lean can improve test scores. Just a thought... There’s a 1/23 post on the Lean Insider section of the Productivity Press website that talks about the Atlanta school system’s use of what the article calls “business process improvement”. There were 7 elements of improvement listed – number 4 is “We gave teachers and school leaders the tools to analyze student performance so they can continually adjust instruction”. The article doesn’t articulate the details, but this may address Mark’s question about how using Lean can improve test scores. Just a thought…

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]]> By: Mark Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3058 Mark Graban Fri, 25 Jan 2008 05:46:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3058 Good post from Ron on his blog following up on this topic, see the link below "Should we Push or Pull in Schools?"... Good post from Ron on his blog following up on this topic, see the link below “Should we Push or Pull in Schools?”…

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]]> By: Ron Pereira http://www.leanblog.org/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3057 Ron Pereira Fri, 25 Jan 2008 05:36:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3057 Fair enough, Mark.<br/><br/>But your comment, "The tools have some overlap, but the GE management system and the Toyota management system are very different in fundamental ways." lead me to believe that you were associating Six Sigma with the GE management system. I guess I read you wrong.<br/><br/>The point I was trying to make is that Six Sigma does not promote laying off the bottom line any more than lean does even if GE does (which not sure if they do this anymore?).<br/><br/>I love our debates Mark. You make me think! Fair enough, Mark.

But your comment, “The tools have some overlap, but the GE management system and the Toyota management system are very different in fundamental ways.” lead me to believe that you were associating Six Sigma with the GE management system. I guess I read you wrong.

The point I was trying to make is that Six Sigma does not promote laying off the bottom line any more than lean does even if GE does (which not sure if they do this anymore?).

I love our debates Mark. You make me think!

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]]> By: Mark Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3056 Mark Graban Fri, 25 Jan 2008 05:03:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2008/01/school-system-using-toyota-methods/#comment-3056 Ron, please... you're reading too much into what I said.<br/><br/>I didn't say Six Sigma is bad... just that it is very different than Lean. People associate GE with Six Sigma the way people associate Toyota with Lean.<br/><br/>I didn't say "I wonder if the school would lay off the bottom 10% if they're doing Six Sigma" and I think it's just as wrong to bring up the case of a Japanese worker who worked himself to death (which is a Japanese culture problem, not a Toyota problem). Ron, please… you’re reading too much into what I said.

I didn’t say Six Sigma is bad… just that it is very different than Lean. People associate GE with Six Sigma the way people associate Toyota with Lean.

I didn’t say “I wonder if the school would lay off the bottom 10% if they’re doing Six Sigma” and I think it’s just as wrong to bring up the case of a Japanese worker who worked himself to death (which is a Japanese culture problem, not a Toyota problem).

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