Comments on: Waste in the 787 Development Process http://www.leanblog.org/2007/12/waste-in-787-development-process/ Mark Graban's leanblog.org - Lean Healthcare, Lean Thinking, Lean Manufacturing, Toyota Production System Thu, 09 Feb 2012 22:59:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: neutron jerk http://www.leanblog.org/2007/12/waste-in-787-development-process/#comment-2895 neutron jerk Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:25:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2007/12/waste-in-the-787-development-process/#comment-2895 Bryan, keep in mind this is apparently "how it's always been done" in aviation, we don't understand how complex this is... we should quit laughing at Boeing and cut them some slack...<br/><br/>So I guess you won't be flying anything then? Bryan, keep in mind this is apparently “how it’s always been done” in aviation, we don’t understand how complex this is… we should quit laughing at Boeing and cut them some slack…

So I guess you won’t be flying anything then?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Bryan http://www.leanblog.org/2007/12/waste-in-787-development-process/#comment-2894 Bryan Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:22:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2007/12/waste-in-the-787-development-process/#comment-2894 Remind me to avoid the 787 like the plague. I like my planes with all the parts installed, if you please. Remind me to avoid the 787 like the plague. I like my planes with all the parts installed, if you please.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Mark Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2007/12/waste-in-787-development-process/#comment-2873 Mark Graban Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:35:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2007/12/waste-in-the-787-development-process/#comment-2873 I didn't say they aren't on a Lean journey and I'm certainly not laughing. As a customer (passenger) that stuff worries me to no end. Should plane production be in the same category as sausage or lawmaking, that you really don't want to know how it's done? I didn’t say they aren’t on a Lean journey and I’m certainly not laughing. As a customer (passenger) that stuff worries me to no end. Should plane production be in the same category as sausage or lawmaking, that you really don’t want to know how it’s done?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2007/12/waste-in-787-development-process/#comment-2872 Anonymous Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:07:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2007/12/waste-in-the-787-development-process/#comment-2872 From: Anonymous<br/>I will give you that it is indeed waste and not ideal, but I would suggest that it is fair to reserve judgement while they proof their process. Like I said, do you think Camry #1 (which would be a pre-production unit) is perfect or even as close to perfection as unit #2 will be? If Boeing has the same exact problem with unit #2 THEN they deserve to be raked over the coals.<br/><br/>I'm not saying that it's an excuse that they deliver unit #1 to a customer, but building something that costs 10 million dollars and takes 6 months to assemble is different than something that is built for $10,000 in a matter of hours. Boeing has a lot (more than most) riding on getting their products right the first time.<br/><br/>Does this case illustrate some challenges for Boeing? Yes. Does it illustrate challenges in building large scale products with multi-national suppliers? Yes. Does it suggest that there is (always) waste in their process? Yes. Does it suggest that Boeing is not on the Lean journey? No.<br/><br/>My point is that he who is without guilt can cast the first stone. [I don't think Toyota will be casting any stones at Boeing.] Look at it as an example and hope you (and they) don't make the same mistake. Pointing and laughing is a waste all the same. From: Anonymous
I will give you that it is indeed waste and not ideal, but I would suggest that it is fair to reserve judgement while they proof their process. Like I said, do you think Camry #1 (which would be a pre-production unit) is perfect or even as close to perfection as unit #2 will be? If Boeing has the same exact problem with unit #2 THEN they deserve to be raked over the coals.

I’m not saying that it’s an excuse that they deliver unit #1 to a customer, but building something that costs 10 million dollars and takes 6 months to assemble is different than something that is built for $10,000 in a matter of hours. Boeing has a lot (more than most) riding on getting their products right the first time.

Does this case illustrate some challenges for Boeing? Yes. Does it illustrate challenges in building large scale products with multi-national suppliers? Yes. Does it suggest that there is (always) waste in their process? Yes. Does it suggest that Boeing is not on the Lean journey? No.

My point is that he who is without guilt can cast the first stone. [I don't think Toyota will be casting any stones at Boeing.] Look at it as an example and hope you (and they) don’t make the same mistake. Pointing and laughing is a waste all the same.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Mark Graban http://www.leanblog.org/2007/12/waste-in-787-development-process/#comment-2868 Mark Graban Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:25:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2007/12/waste-in-the-787-development-process/#comment-2868 To anonymous 12/11 9:17<br/><br/>This is supposed to be reassuring that the #1 787 is going to a customer? Isn't that all the more reason to go slow and get it right, rather than the cobble it together outside of the planned process?<br/><br/>How many have they made yet? None. All the more reason to get the process right and to follow it. It sounds like they're making the process up as they go (or there is no process)... just deadlines to hit at all costs. A box full of uninstalled parts with Italian instructions? You're kidding me to defend that.<br/><br/>It's waste. Pure and simple. To anonymous 12/11 9:17

This is supposed to be reassuring that the #1 787 is going to a customer? Isn’t that all the more reason to go slow and get it right, rather than the cobble it together outside of the planned process?

How many have they made yet? None. All the more reason to get the process right and to follow it. It sounds like they’re making the process up as they go (or there is no process)… just deadlines to hit at all costs. A box full of uninstalled parts with Italian instructions? You’re kidding me to defend that.

It’s waste. Pure and simple.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Mike T http://www.leanblog.org/2007/12/waste-in-787-development-process/#comment-2866 Mike T Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:44:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2007/12/waste-in-the-787-development-process/#comment-2866 Interesting thoughts. I think the real focus is if they used localized suppliers, couldn't they catch the defects in process, rather than after the fact?<br/><br/>Therein lies the issue with overseas supply chains. By the time defects are found, the entire lot is complete and cannot be redone without adding excessive expense to the product. Include that with the lead time required for shipping + actual internal manufacturing lead time, and your cost of customer satisfaction gets painful. Interesting thoughts. I think the real focus is if they used localized suppliers, couldn’t they catch the defects in process, rather than after the fact?

Therein lies the issue with overseas supply chains. By the time defects are found, the entire lot is complete and cannot be redone without adding excessive expense to the product. Include that with the lead time required for shipping + actual internal manufacturing lead time, and your cost of customer satisfaction gets painful.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.leanblog.org/2007/12/waste-in-787-development-process/#comment-2865 Anonymous Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:17:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2007/12/waste-in-the-787-development-process/#comment-2865 Let's look at this for a second: How many 787's has Boeing made using this supply chain and assembly process? None yet. I would suggeest that before you chastise them for having an issue with production unit #1, you consider that in the automotive industry the first several units are used to iron out the kinks in new prodution systems. Do you think the very first Camry to traverse a brand new assembly line is without any flaws that aren't corrected as soon as they are detected? The main difference is that Boeing delivers this first unit to a customer, and Toyota delivers it to the proving grounds. Let’s look at this for a second: How many 787′s has Boeing made using this supply chain and assembly process? None yet. I would suggeest that before you chastise them for having an issue with production unit #1, you consider that in the automotive industry the first several units are used to iron out the kinks in new prodution systems. Do you think the very first Camry to traverse a brand new assembly line is without any flaws that aren’t corrected as soon as they are detected? The main difference is that Boeing delivers this first unit to a customer, and Toyota delivers it to the proving grounds.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: David http://www.leanblog.org/2007/12/waste-in-787-development-process/#comment-2860 David Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:40:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2007/12/waste-in-the-787-development-process/#comment-2860 I expect that the offshoring of components was driven by sales/political reasons at least as much as by manufacturing/cost reasons. There are lots of countries in the world where the government has a strong influence over airlines, and they are more likely to go along with an order for US-made planes if the direct benefit to the local economy can be demonstrated. I expect that the offshoring of components was driven by sales/political reasons at least as much as by manufacturing/cost reasons. There are lots of countries in the world where the government has a strong influence over airlines, and they are more likely to go along with an order for US-made planes if the direct benefit to the local economy can be demonstrated.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Les http://www.leanblog.org/2007/12/waste-in-787-development-process/#comment-2858 Les Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:01:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2007/12/waste-in-the-787-development-process/#comment-2858 It is great that Ford was able to hire a guy who helped set such a good system up. I am sure he can help Ford get the same good results. Oh well, I suppose that there was no-one Ford Motor could grow from within.... It is great that Ford was able to hire a guy who helped set such a good system up. I am sure he can help Ford get the same good results. Oh well, I suppose that there was no-one Ford Motor could grow from within….

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Scott http://www.leanblog.org/2007/12/waste-in-787-development-process/#comment-2857 Scott Mon, 10 Dec 2007 03:20:00 +0000 http://leanblog.bigbigdesign.net/2007/12/waste-in-the-787-development-process/#comment-2857 Good question. I suppose Toyota wouldn't have had such a long supply chain to start with? I never understood (well, I know the answer - cost savings, supposedly?) the drive to make parts and fly them in, even the fuselages (though the ginormous 747 is pretty cool in and of itself). I hope supply chainers out there take heed. Boeing could have had Airbus on their knees but the much vaunted supply chain has really messed things up it appears. Good question. I suppose Toyota wouldn’t have had such a long supply chain to start with? I never understood (well, I know the answer – cost savings, supposedly?) the drive to make parts and fly them in, even the fuselages (though the ginormous 747 is pretty cool in and of itself). I hope supply chainers out there take heed. Boeing could have had Airbus on their knees but the much vaunted supply chain has really messed things up it appears.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]>